Royal Gramma Sudden Death

[JustinMN18]

Hello, I unfortunately lost a 2+ year old Royal Gramma to some unknown issue. Up until about a week ago, it was actively eating, swimming out and about, and looked perfect and vibrant. One morning I noticed it didn't come out for food, thought it was strange, but didn't think about it.

As the days went, it didn't seem to get worse, but didn't come out of its cave at all. I never noticed a scratching or erratic behavior. My other fish seem to be fine (100 gallon dt, foxface, yellow tang, two hawkfish, 1 starry blenny, 1 pearly jawfish, 2 clowns, 1 Melenarus wrasse now). I haven't observed symptoms for brook, velvet, ich, or internal parasite. However it seemed to be breathing hard, and because of the hiding and no eating, I was thinking maybe gill flukes. I was just going to do a round of prazi in the display today, when I saw it on the sand bed.

I did a freshwater dip post death, and didn't notice anything come off of the fish, so I haven't yet done prazipro.

Parameters
Alk 8.81
Calc 504
Mag 1370
pH 8.19 (usually 8.15-8.25)
Salinity 35
Temp 77.2

I don't recall any sort of big change or anything eventful that would cause one fish to suddenly experience this. Does anyone have any idea why a fish would suddenly hide 100% of the time and stop eating? Here's a picture after 10 mins in freshwater (post death).

I'm wondering if I should do prazi just in case?
Thanks,
Justin

 

[JustinMN18]

One thing I did notice before he started hiding was the bottom jaw looks longer than normal. But I can't remember if it has been like that and is normal, or it maybe it was injured?

 

[Jekyl]

Any new additions?

 

[Julbra]

Sorry for your loss. That jaw looks really abnormally long I have never seen this. Do you have photos from a different angle?

Any idea how old he was when you got him? It’s possible he just got too old.

I personally wouldn’t put Prazi in the display unless you see other fish acting up.

 

[JustinMN18]

Any new additions?

I did add a small wrasse about two months ago, but it disappeared. It was a tiny mystery wrasse and my theory is my Melenarus took it out.

I have added corals, but no other fish since that little guy disappeared.

 

[JustinMN18]

Sorry for your loss. That jaw looks really abnormally long I have never seen this. Do you have photos from a different angle?

Any idea how old he was when you got him? It’s possible he just got too old.

I personally wouldn’t put Prazi in the display unless you see other fish acting up.

Yea after posting, I googled adult Royal Gramma and noticed they don't have long bottom jaws. So I was wondering if maybe it got injured... Here's another picture from today.

I did notice that the jaw did look extended before it started hiding. Like a massive underbite kind of thing.

 

[Jekyl]

@Jay Hemdal

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yea after posting, I googled adult Royal Gramma and noticed they don't have long bottom jaws. So I was wondering if maybe it got injured... Here's another picture from today.

I did notice that the jaw did look extended before it started hiding. Like a massive underbite kind of thing.

Mouth open like this suggests low or loss of oxygen
They don’t have a long captive life span but as far as deterioration during the week, can be internal, tuberculosis or other associated with age

 

[JustinMN18]

Mouth open like this suggests low or loss of oxygen
They don’t have a long captive life span but as far as deterioration during the week, can be internal, tuberculosis or other associated with age

If there was low oxygen, wouldn't that drop my pH considerably?

It's a bummer. But I'm hoping it's just "natural causes".

 

[vetteguy53081]

If there was low oxygen, wouldn't that drop my pH considerably?

It's a bummer. But I'm hoping it's just "natural causes".

Carbon dioxide, not O2

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello, I unfortunately lost a 2+ year old Royal Gramma to some unknown issue. Up until about a week ago, it was actively eating, swimming out and about, and looked perfect and vibrant. One morning I noticed it didn't come out for food, thought it was strange, but didn't think about it.

As the days went, it didn't seem to get worse, but didn't come out of its cave at all. I never noticed a scratching or erratic behavior. My other fish seem to be fine (100 gallon dt, foxface, yellow tang, two hawkfish, 1 starry blenny, 1 pearly jawfish, 2 clowns, 1 Melenarus wrasse now). I haven't observed symptoms for brook, velvet, ich, or internal parasite. However it seemed to be breathing hard, and because of the hiding and no eating, I was thinking maybe gill flukes. I was just going to do a round of prazi in the display today, when I saw it on the sand bed.

I did a freshwater dip post death, and didn't notice anything come off of the fish, so I haven't yet done prazipro.

Parameters
Alk 8.81
Calc 504
Mag 1370
pH 8.19 (usually 8.15-8.25)
Salinity 35
Temp 77.2

I don't recall any sort of big change or anything eventful that would cause one fish to suddenly experience this. Does anyone have any idea why a fish would suddenly hide 100% of the time and stop eating? Here's a picture after 10 mins in freshwater (post death).

I'm wondering if I should do prazi just in case?
Thanks,
Justin

You won't find gill flukes in a FW dip unless you use a microscope, and then, they are tough to visualize. The open mouth at death indicates low oxygen conditions. The high pH on the water tends to rule out low oxygen/high carbon dioxide.

Did you happen to peek inside the gill covers at the gills themselves? White or pale pink means anemia. Missing areas, white lesions, etc, can be bacterial disease or gill flukes.

I'm leaning towards a chronic gull fluke infection that suddenly got worse.....

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

You won't find gill flukes in a FW dip unless you use a microscope, and then, they are tough to visualize. The open mouth at death indicates low oxygen conditions. The high pH on the water tends to rule out low oxygen/high carbon dioxide.

Did you happen to peek inside the gill covers at the gills themselves? White or pale pink means anemia. Missing areas, white lesions, etc, can be bacterial disease or gill flukes.

I'm leaning towards a chronic gull fluke infection that suddenly got worse.....

Jay

Hi Jay,

Thanks for this input. I greatly appreciate it. Here are some pictures I have.. not great ones.. it's frozen (I just froze it to be absolutely certain it was fully passed before tossing it).

If it is a gill fluke issue, do you think two rounds of prazipro "just in case" would be a good move? I've done it once before, and seemed to have good results. This was about a year and a half ago. But I don't want to act too fast as I know that can make things worse.

Thanks again,
Justin

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,

Thanks for this input. I greatly appreciate it. Here are some pictures I have.. not great ones.. it's frozen (I just froze it to be absolutely certain it was fully passed before tossing it).

If it is a gill fluke issue, do you think two rounds of prazipro "just in case" would be a good move? I've done it once before, and seemed to have good results. This was about a year and a half ago. But I don't want to act too fast as I know that can make things worse.

Thanks again,
Justin

I would hold off on the prazi unless the remaining fish show symptoms or IF you noticed an increased breathing rate in the gramma prior to death.

Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

I would hold off on the prazi unless the remaining fish show symptoms or IF you noticed an increased breathing rate in the gramma prior to death.

Jay

Do you know how I can determine increased breathing? I'm not sure what is "normal" for something like a foxface, vs yellow tang, vs Melenarus wrasse.

My wrasse, foxface, and tang all seem to swim in the flow often. And they all sort of hide. Not all the time, like right now they're low and chilling about, but often times I'll see them under a rock. I would say my foxface is breathing at roughly 100-120 per minute.

 

[Julbra]

Do you know how I can determine increased breathing? I'm not sure what is "normal" for something like a foxface, vs yellow tang, vs Melenarus wrasse.

My wrasse, foxface, and tang all seem to swim in the flow often. And they all sort of hide. Not all the time, like right now they're low and chilling about, but often times I'll see them under a rock. I would say my foxface is breathing at roughly 100-120 per minute.

It really depends on species and size.

@Jay Hemdal wrote a great piece about this with more details here:
Post in thread 'Breathing: how fast is "fast"?'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/breathing-how-fast-is-fast.764252/post-8047679

 

[JustinMN18]

It really depends on species and size.

@Jay Hemdal wrote a great piece about this with more details here:
Post in thread 'Breathing: how fast is "fast"?'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/breathing-how-fast-is-fast.764252/post-8047679

That's amazing, thank you! And thank you @Jay Hemdal

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Do you know how I can determine increased breathing? I'm not sure what is "normal" for something like a foxface, vs yellow tang, vs Melenarus wrasse.

My wrasse, foxface, and tang all seem to swim in the flow often. And they all sort of hide. Not all the time, like right now they're low and chilling about, but often times I'll see them under a rock. I would say my foxface is breathing at roughly 100-120 per minute.

120 is at the fast end of normal. What is the water temperature of the tank?
I should have added, look not just at the rate, but any increase in the rate (going from 100 to 120 overnight is a bad sign).
Jay

 

[JustinMN18]

120 is at the fast end of normal. What is the water temperature of the tank?
I should have added, look not just at the rate, but any increase in the rate (going from 100 to 120 overnight is a bad sign).
Jay

The temperature is 77.5 degrees F. I'm going to try and grab a video of the foxface.

 

[JustinMN18]

120 is at the fast end of normal. What is the water temperature of the tank?
I should have added, look not just at the rate, but any increase in the rate (going from 100 to 120 overnight is a bad sign).
Jay

Here's the video of the foxface. It seems like it's fast shallow breathing.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here's the video of the foxface. It seems like it's fast shallow breathing.

Sorry, my internet is out and I can’t view the video on my phone…..ugh

Jay