Seneye Experiments and Cycling

[brandon429]

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

that’s all I’m wanting, that’s res publica in the home


see their seneye baselines

and now added ammonia spikes then goes down, thats all am wanting to see. Then do experiments with them, show how the machine would work for the average tester.

Is anyone with a mindstream or seneye ammonia reader willing to co-fund a cycling experiment with me

Might I suggest you establish a more scientific design? First, You need a null hypothesis, (what exactly are you trying to prove or disprove)? This needs to be extremely specific and include quantitative measures for success. second: experimental design 1. All test environments need to be as...

www.reef2reef.com

I promise Neon am not trying to derail the thread, I wanted to quickly link Jon M’s particular seneye tuning there. We chat a lot so you’ll have to scroll but see what he did with his seneye as proofing

In my opinion that’s remarkable seneye baselining in both a dry start reef test and a matured reef then back again, then he proofs out dr tims bottle bac, then he proofs out lack of surface area in a qt setup to run at hundredths vs thousandths nh3, then back to thousandths again in a running dt. its the most trustworthy proofing calibration I could imagine. @Jon Malkerson you did dang good work man showing common context.


**I know for Dan and Neon the chemistry charts for pH and nh3 can be used as proofing, it lines up on paper agreed. I still want to see the real life changes inside a reef tank the meter can indicate, for the complete picture

Jon got his meter to truly indicate some form of precise dynamic change by proofing tiny variations in running aquarium setups

 

[Dan_P]

It would be nice to determine and come up with a trim value calculator. On my first go around (the data above) it showed it was reading high but I also concluded that my pH was likely off as well during calibration by about .08 based on expected values. Also Hanna salinity checker reads lower by about 1-1.5 ppt. So much error can go into proofing and calibrating these things that you have to recognize that you may be calibrating in the wrong direction.

Trying to dig through my statistics/probability text books to find the method used to calibrate (find expected value) given multiple variables. I will work up an example on expected NH3 given the range of error with my current devices.

I think one aspect of what you want is the propagation of error. The calculation of free ammonia requires the total amount of ammonia, pH and temperature. That will make a chubby error bar. That’s for the x-axis error bar size. The error in the Seneye reading, y-axis error bar, I have these comments: a) Seneye tech support says +/- 0.01 ppm, b) it seems the Seneye device reads in intervals of 0.002 ppm above 0.010 ppm. I never saw an odd number.

 

[LRT]

Just to clarify and be straight forward, the data @Dan_P is referencing was used to derive a trim value

Im curious how much confidence you have in the machine once its trimmed? If you where or are able to cross refference back to another tool of measurement to make sure the machine isn't slipping during experiments?
How often are you trimming?

I can tell you new slide or not. Im running 3 temp probes and they are all consistent to one another within half degree F.. With the seneye in same spot. No matter where I place it. It is still reading all over the place. Temp does effect ph to certain degree at least thats what im seeing when I trim my temp depending on how far off its reading.
I wouldnt be surprised at all if the machine isn't actually slipping right after trim or shortly after trim.
I can trim my temp and the very first reading it takes is off trim to the temp I trimmed it to more often than not.

 

[Dan_P]

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

that’s all I’m wanting, that’s res publica in the home


see their seneye baselines

and now added ammonia spikes then goes down, thats all am wanting to see. Then do experiments with them, show how the machine would work for the average tester.

Is anyone with a mindstream or seneye ammonia reader willing to co-fund a cycling experiment with me

Might I suggest you establish a more scientific design? First, You need a null hypothesis, (what exactly are you trying to prove or disprove)? This needs to be extremely specific and include quantitative measures for success. second: experimental design 1. All test environments need to be as...

www.reef2reef.com

I promise Neon am not trying to derail the thread, I wanted to quickly link Jon M’s particular seneye tuning there. We chat a lot so you’ll have to scroll but see what he did with his seneye as proofing

In my opinion that’s remarkable seneye baselining in both a dry start reef test and a matured reef then back again, then he proofs out dr tims bottle bac, then he proofs out lack of surface area in a qt setup to run at hundredths vs thousandths nh3, then back to thousandths again in a running dt. its the most trustworthy proofing calibration I could imagine. @Jon Malkerson you did dang good work man showing common context.


**I know for Dan and Neon the chemistry charts for pH and nh3 can be used as proofing, it lines up on paper agreed. I still want to see the real life changes inside a reef tank the meter can indicate, for the complete picture

Jon got his meter to truly indicate some form of precise dynamic change by proofing tiny variations in running aquarium setups

One thing I am doing right now is studying Bio-Spira biofilm formation, the rate of ammonia consumption and rate of nitrite production in bare plastic boxes. It’s just me and the bugs. In stepwise fashion, I will add typical aquarium material to the experiment. Neon is pioneering the way on this and I am studying his results so I can build on what he finds. We should at the end of the day be able to say whether or not it matters how you cycle an aquarium. For example, set pH, T, PO4, NH3 and in 5 days your system can consume ppm of NH3 per day which translates to X coral frags and 3 -1 inch fish…or simething like that, hopefully . Hey, hasn’t this all been done before?

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Im curious how much confidence you have in the machine once its trimmed? If you where or are able to cross refference back to another tool of measurement to make sure the machine isn't slipping during experiments?
How often are you trimming?

I can tell you new slide or not. Im running 3 temp probes and they are all consistent to one another within half degree F.. With the seneye in same spot. No matter where I place it. It is still reading all over the place. Temp does effect ph to certain degree at least thats what im seeing when I trim my temp depending on how far off its reading.
I wouldnt be surprised at all if the machine isn't actually slipping right after trim or shortly after trim.
I can trim my temp and the very first reading it takes is off trim to the temp I trimmed it to more often than not.

As Dan mentioned I think it does well in lower ranges but slips at higher ranges... For these two experiments I am only focuses on dosing 2 ppm and waiting until it falls under the near zero threshold. I can accept a fairly large amount of error in this case. On my next slide I can run some experiments on accuracy/precision and place the device in known concentrations and run it against several test kits.

 

[LRT]

As Dan mentioned I think it does well in lower ranges but slips at higher ranges... For these two experiments I am only focuses on dosing 2 ppm and waiting until it falls under the near zero threshold. I can accept a fairly large amount of error in this case. On my next slide I can run some experiments on accuracy/precision and place the device in known concentrations and run it against several test kits.

Awesome. I only ask because I'm curious about how well its holding trim on other params if trim is slipping so often on temp.
I did try and place mine just about everywhere I could think of in my res as well as ghost backflow with the other temp probes. First cpl days with new slide out of package was most consistent. I think first 24hrs was dead on.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Lets do a 3 person test. We can test at Day 0, Day 10 and Day 20 and Day 30. Start in a 1 gal container and dose ammonia up to 1 ppm with a target ph of 7.9 or so then raise the pH to 8.1 then 8.3. If we can get on the same page we can collaborate data for the community. Just an idea, open to suggestions.

 

[LRT]

Lets do a 3 person test. We can test at Day 0, Day 10 and Day 20 and Day 30. Start in a 1 gal container and dose ammonia up to 1 ppm with a target ph of 7.9 or so then raise the pH to 8.1 then 8.3. If we can get on the same page we can collaborate data for the community. Just an idea, open to suggestions.

I will for sure join in the fun. B day is few days away and asked the wife for a pinpoint ph monitor. Either way im getting it just have to ride it out and see if she gets it haha

 

[Dan_P]

I have two Seneye SUDs and SWSs and really like them...but they've also been providing some false readings over the past three months. Some of the readings have been consistently inaccurate, such as pH values, and the readings become even more wobbly as the slides near the end of their "lives". I've compared the accuracy of the devices with other test kits as controls (Hanna checkers and Red Sea kits), and discovered that:

-Seneye temperature is generally accurate within 1C; this accuracy doesn't change.
-NH3 readings can be wildly inaccurate, but are generally very accurate. One of my devices gave me a reading of 0.253 this morning; the next reading was back to 0.001.
-PAR readings are accurate
-pH readings aren't very reliable as the slides age.

If you keep this in mind, the devices can give some great feedback. Now back to the regularly scheduled programme...

The Seneye responds to ammonia quickly. Any possibility of a high concentration of ammonia wafting past the Seneye unit?

 

[Dan_P]

I am testing that idea right now. I am growing a biofilm on a Seneye slide and testing weekly.

My Seneye slide performance did not degrade after sitting in a sump (no illumination) for 21 days. Both pH and ammonia response did not change.

 

[Dan_P]

Perhaps he will find you can dip it in H2O2 every month and never have to buy a new one

I wonder. The need for a slide change every month looks like a money making scheme but that’s just paranoid speculation by me.

 

[davidcalgary29]

The Seneye responds to ammonia quickly. Any possibility of a high concentration of ammonia wafting past the Seneye unit?

It's possible. I don't have a high bioload in the tank and nothing's died (even a snail), so it's unlikely. The Seneye people told me not to use an extension cord (I don't), so I think it's either a problem with the connection, the magnetic field of my Vortech pumps affecting readings, or faulty slides.

 

[Dan_P]

It's possible. I don't have a high bioload in the tank and nothing's died (even a snail), so it's unlikely. The Seneye people told me not to use an extension cord (I don't), so I think it's either a problem with the connection, the magnetic field of my Vortech pumps affecting readings, or faulty slides.

OK, thanks.

We are possibly gaining insight into flukey Seneye electronics.

 

[davidcalgary29]

OK, thanks.

We are possibly gaining insight into flukey Seneye electronics.

I'd love to know, too. My SWS (bought new just this year) in that tank has worked only intermittently for the past two months. And I've rebooted it a number of times, moved equipment, etc.

My other one, an eBay find, hasn't given me any problems.

 

[MnFish1]

every cycling post I’ve ever seen is add cocktail shrimp or 2 ppm ammonia, add bottle bac, wait till nitrite and ammonia are zero, wait as long as it takes. Agreed inside limited inner circles this has been known, the ability to self cycle without retail help, but it’s new to be written about and publicly discussed with proofs nowadays.

For decades (I know because I have used them) - products have existed that advise - add water, salt, bacteria and fish on day 1. I have never had a problem, never owned an ammonia test kit (or a nitrite test kit).

Neon if you get a chance before taking the assessment system down, blast it with orders of cycling ammonia well above what we'd use, say about 10 ppm hit

let swirl a few days, I dont expect it to clear at all, and then change out water and retest for a tiny bit of oxidation ability on a practical level. just musing ways to work the system and test tolerance boundaries, exceeding the feared 5 ppm ammonia mark twice over is a neat way to test biofilm insulation and bac rebounds if u get bored on current setup

Dr Reef already has done extended 5+ ppm ammonia testing to no harm, I bet the system wouldnt be sterilized even at 20ppm I have no idea what the true kill dose level would be. but its forgiving, it takes a lot to kill water bacteria in water

There was significant slowing of ammonia processing at high levels of ammonia. If you recall, he started out at 8 PPM - with basically none of the products doing much (except maybe Fritz). He then lowered it.

 

[MnFish1]

Just curious - who is trying to sell 'products'? Seneye or bottle-bacteria producers. One company sells a test, the other sells a product that makes the test unnecessary. Which is more costly?

 

[brandon429]

They’re both meeting market demands: bottle bac for legit instant bioload carry where wanted, and seneye for showing every reefer their cycled display for sure doesn’t run at .25 or even .025 after api tan conversion.

not insignificant contributions


the sales boon is in the muddying:

since I have positive nitrite after sixty days wait, and online stuff says nitrite will stall a cycle, I’d better buy another brand to get things unstuck


I can’t fault seneye for having some burps initially


it runs well enough such that I think it’s patterns from good and proven machines are changing cycling science. Validating some claims and neutralizing other common claims. final results tbd at least we can see thousandths ppm nh3 now at all, back in 2013 everyone had to guess what displays ran at we had ocean data to reference not digital nh3 data from cycled home reefs

 

[Dan_P]

I'd love to know, too. My SWS (bought new just this year) in that tank has worked only intermittently for the past two months. And I've rebooted it a number of times, moved equipment, etc.

My other one, an eBay find, hasn't given me any problems.

Oh boy, that has to be annoying. Wish I had some ideas how to investigate electronics.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

So after 65 hours the smaller rock bucket processed 1.5 ppm ammonia. Comparing this to the 2 large chunk experiment which took 14 days... Not sure if I should go ahead to rebleach the small rock chunks and try and get similar results but everything was sterilized prior and I used the same 10 ml dose to Dr. Tims. Hard to believe it went that fast... Think the seneye could have transfered some additional bacteria? I had it sitting in fresh SW (with tap) for 24 hours while I prepared the 2nd bucket... Verified that its close enough to zero with API.

 

[Dan_P]

So after 65 hours the smaller rock bucket processed 1.5 ppm ammonia. Comparing this to the 2 large chunk experiment which took 14 days... Not sure if I should go ahead to rebleach the small rock chunks and try and get similar results but everything was sterilized prior and I used the same 10 ml dose to Dr. Tims. Hard to believe it went that fast... Think the seneye could have transfered some additional bacteria? I had it sitting in fresh SW (with tap) for 24 hours while I prepared the 2nd bucket... Verified that its close enough to zero with API.

I am working with Bio-Spira and measuring total ammonia in 1.5 liters of aerated Instant Ocean in plastic boxes. With that as my reference point, the 14 day experiment seems to take too long. The 65 hour rate is “normal”. @taricha is doing a nitrification study with little aquaria. He has data to share.