Should we rethink and refine means and methods for cycling tanks?

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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Extrapolating the rules from Dr Tims cycling video from MACNA comprises today’s most peer-recommended way of cycling a reef.

Dose to two ppm check back overnite to see if total zero shows, no differentiation among cycling substrates.

The thought is if you can’t move that much ammonia to zero in 24 hours then you don’t have enough bacteria. It’s simply not the case.

i have several pages of cycling examples + year out follow ups where we didn’t dose two ppm, and we didn’t dose ammonia more than once, and nobody needed a second round of bacteria. It’s neat you typed that about your seneye measures as I typed that above. The things we add to start a cycle work so fast, the initial ammonia dose is nearly instantly oxidized to the hundredths while api holds at 1-3 ppm for eight days. All stalled cycle threads are misreads.


the notion of a stalled cycle sells more bottle bac unnecessarily than any other angle in reefing. It sells repeat purchases for the same tank which was fine on the first dose and most certainly not stalled.
 
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Extrapolating the rules from Dr Tims cycling video from MACNA comprises today’s most peer-recommended way of cycling a reef.

Dose to two ppm check back overnite to see if total zero shows

The thought is if you can’t move that much ammonia to zero in 24 hours then you don’t have enough bacteria. It’s simply not the case.

i have several pages of cycling examples + year out follow ups where we didn’t dose two ppm, and we didn’t dose ammonia more than once, and nobody needed a second round of bacteria. It’s neat you typed that about your seneye measures as I typed that above. The things we add to start a cycle work so fast, the initial ammonia does is nearly instantly oxidized while api holds at 1 ppm for eight days.
So technically. I dosed .006 ammonia during regular feedings that tracked back to 0 twice and pretty much remain there to date.
How exactly does my 100 corals, 4 fish and 50 Cuc fit into all that in first 24hrs?
Its precisely this that needs to be re examined, re thought and correct data put forth.
Id still like to know who dreamt up 2 ppm of ammonia cycled and ask them just exactly what kind of bioload and size tank that was meant to carry:)
 
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Not to be a downer, but if you think that a bottle of bacteria with some fuel is going to get you to the finish line, then think again. They contain only a few small strains and have nothing like what you can get coming out of the gut of a fish or on something from the ocean or another mature tank. I imagine that this is better than nothing, but it is probably better to spend that $10 on a pound of LR and put that in there.
Hey Jda I actually did some experimenting with bottle bac in instatank #2 and found that bottle bac may have done more harm than good at the end of day. Crazy wierd ph, alk swings and algae issues.
Both tanks controlled identical all the way across the board.
Only common denominator was bottle bac in tank 2.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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I found it convenient that overdriving api ammonia test kits and causing a days-long delay is certain by following the current verification rules.


you know which thread I’m about to post -


5 minute case study


results of that thread: if you own api, your initial bac were dead, you buy three more bottles during the wait and are ready by day fifteen or twenty hesitantly, if you haven’t dosed prime in reaction to the first delay, or as dechlor for the source water, in which you will wait till November.


but on same cycling tank if you own seneye you can see that every fish + bottle bac cycle decried by the masses as a mean burn was actually ready on day one, minute one, after adding bottle bac like Fritz to the water. Dr Tims bac works this well too, they all seem to. The risk was disease import, not failure to filter.

Simple mis testing is leading the masses around by the ring nose circularly into unneeded purchases— for twenty five years. Thats a lot of cash outflow from the trained buyers right to the resolved, calm, predictive, certain, deliberate sellers who are never caught stalling.
 
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One cycle starting the family of nitro-bacterias breaking down ammonia into nitrates does not mean you have a free pass to start adding corals and sensitive fish.

Stop these mad thoughts....


.
I'm in the presence of mind that our reefs never technically fully cycle. They continue to cycle and mature everyday.
According to the rules and data my tank was able to hit the ground running, continues to run, and the data supports and fits well within the rules fully. So idk
Here's alot of madness for yall to wrap your head around here:)
If the tank has been fully cycled according to the rules how do those rules not apply here?
20211013_173042.jpg
 

zoa what

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If the tank has been fully cycled according to the rules how do those rules not apply here?
Your water is daily cycling and keeping the biomarine cultures going bc of all the good bacterias built up in and on LR, your internal pipes, all surface areas

Takes various lengths of time to get DEEP RESOURCES of good bacteria benefiting the water column
 
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I found it convenient that overdriving api ammonia test kits and causing a days-long delay is certain by following the current verification rules.


you know which thread I’m about to post -


5 minute case study


results of that thread: if you own api, your initial bac were dead, you buy three more bottles during the wait and are ready by day fifteen or twenty hesitantly, if you haven’t dosed prime in reaction to the first delay, or as dechlor for the source water, in which you will wait till November.


but on same cycling tank if you own seneye you can see that every fish + bottle bac cycle decried by the masses as a mean burn was actually ready on day one, minute one, after adding bottle bac like Fritz to the water. Dr Tims bac works this well too, they all seem to. The risk was disease import, not failure to filter.

Simple mis testing is leading the masses around by the ring nose circularly into unneeded purchases— for twenty five years. Thats a lot of cash outflow from the trained buyers right to the resolved, calm, predictive, certain, deliberate sellers who are never caught stalling.
This tank broke my brain. The exact rules, science and data that I applied to my instastock was used on this one.
Except one major difference. Dry rock and bottle bac was used on that tank.
Mine was fully cured live gulf rock.
Totally crazy man
 
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Your water is daily cycling and keeping the biomarine cultures going bc of all the good bacterias built up in and on LR, your internal pipes, all surface areas

Takes various lengths of time to get DEEP RESOURCES of good bacteria benefiting the water column
For sure man. I'm still trying to figure out the water column. Technically under the rules of cycling. Reefs should be fully cycled and able to carry bioload according to pros. But what about the water column and common white cloudy blooms most new tanks experience. I do think water column goes through its own cycle as im not sure how else to word or think that.
I am leaning towards if your tank is fully cycled according to the pros guidelines. Levels are correct and acceptable to carry bioload. It may actually be more beneficial to fully stock so corals can bring more diversity to the bioload and maturing surfaces and water column.
 

F i s h y

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I'll add to this conversation. Cycling tanks is specific typically to fish bio load i have seen that with many dry rock tanks, a part of the cycle is the phosphate equilibrium needed to keep coral and impede things like dynos and cyano. Meaning for some new setups we should be including other nutrients in the start up and "cycling" conversation.

@LRT Your rock for instance was probably not either soaking up or releasing phosphates at a pace your reef couldn't handle. For other new tanks this is probably not the case.
 
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I'll add to this conversation. Cycling tanks is specific typically to fish bio load i have seen that with many dry rock tanks, a part of the cycle is the phosphate equilibrium needed to keep coral and impede things like dynos and cyano. Meaning for some new setups we should be including other nutrients in the start up and "cycling" conversation.

@LRT Your rock for instance was probably not either soaking up or releasing phosphates at a pace your reef couldn't handle. For other new tanks this is probably not the case.
Hey bro. To be real ive found nutrient levels to be one of the hardest things to maintain in my transfer. Old system was pretty dialed and balanced in to specific levels with regular daily feeding and dosing.
When I transferred to new tank.
I found and am finding it challenging just to keep nutrients recordable at acceptable levels.
I'm actually dosing Phosphates still. And had had to dose Nitrates first cpl months until recently.
So exact same thing folks see in dry rock bottle bac start ups except turbo charged 100%
What im sure is happening is cleaned up rock is fully capable of handling regular feedings and exporting alot more as well as nutrients are being dispersed and built up in nrw water column and new surfaces in clean system.
@Eagle_Steve said he seen alot of same things with similar transfers and I believe his alk consumption went up in first cpl weeks as well.
 
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Huh. I guess I'm just an oddball. I started a freshwater tank just by throwing a couple of rocks into an ice cream bucket full of water and setting it outside till I saw a touch of green. Then into the tank with one fish. Watch for ammonia. Five days later, still no ammonia. Add another fish. No ammonia. Five days after the third fish, no ammonia, I didn't check it anymore. If I skimped on water changes, then I would check PH and nitrate before the water change. And once the first tank was cycled, I never had to cycle again. Just moved some gravel -with- gunk in it. Done.

Then I got the saltwater bug (anybody find a cure for this yet?) and started a pico. I have been lurking off and on here for years n years. Biobac? Pfft. I figured that was for the really big tanks and big fish. My first pico was about 3/4 of a gallon. I set it up, put a rolled up media bag in it with a magnet to keep in place (for critters n bacteria) and and then I put in 3 coral frags, -not- dipped for the bacteria, and a blue-legged hermie to get things started. No ammonia.

I guess I'm just a natural rule breaker.
Hahaha ive never met a rule i didn't want to break or at least bend:)
This is really interesting. I sincerely do believe that fully stocking my tank with corals, the plugs, rocks and discs after cycle 100% only helped bring in the addition of bacteria needed to maintain proper cycling params.
The exact opposite is being preached in old school cycle methods.
Fullest respects to brs for doing the 48hr fully stocked tank and research prior to my 24hr tank.
Not sure if I would have had the guts to do it.
Why not cover all your surfaces with corals so algae simply has no place to grow?
Especially if the params the pros pass down regarding cycling is met and tank is capable of carrying bioload.
To me its a full no brainer:)
 

Lasse

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New saltmix water was put in new tank. Rock and critters put in same time. Tank fed. Seen no more than a .006 spike in ammonia and back down according to seneye. Fed twice during first 12 hrs.
Tank fully stocked with over 100 corals, 3 fish, full CUC brigade within first 24hrs.
What you basically have done is to move an existing tank with 100% WC. The rocks looks as living rocks or used rocks - not dry rocks. Of cause it could be done. Corals ar no bioload, They are not producer of nitrogen or other nutrients - they are consumer. Your real biolad in the start is your 3 fish and the feed you give them. Basically you have followed my 15 steps but your seed of nitrification is not a bottle - it is your rocks and + 100 corals (with lot of space for nitrifiers. How large is the tank - it seems to be more than 100 G. Did you dip your corals before the introduction in the tank - if not - you have introduced an army of nitrifiers.

What are your advices to people that do not have access to living or old rocks and/or 100 of grown up corals with their substrates ? Don´t mention setting up a fish only tank.

You are using a special case in order to argue in a general discussion.

Never checked nitrites.

I have done that setup many times - it is not any need to measure anything when you move a old tanks content to a new tank according to acute toxicity

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Lasse

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I'll add to this conversation. Cycling tanks is specific typically to fish bio load i have seen that with many dry rock tanks, a part of the cycle is the phosphate equilibrium needed to keep coral and impede things like dynos and cyano. Meaning for some new setups we should be including other nutrients in the start up and "cycling" conversation.
The old method including a start up fish take care of that - please see here

Sincerely Lasse
 

Lasse

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ank fed. Seen no more than a .006 spike in ammonia and back down according to seneye.
Seney measuring the toxic form only - not total ammonia. If your seneye says 0.006 ppm at pH 8 - your total ammonia was around 0.24. For me a figure that 100 + photosynthetic corals can take up during one photo cycle

I have still not seen any figures of seneye accuracy according to NH3 measurements. For me - it could be as questionable as most hobby tests. Because of that you did not measured nitrite - we have no idea when the tank was fully cycled.

Note - fully cycled means when the nitrification process is seamless from NH3/NH4 to NO3 - not when organism stop to die. Cycling is an accepted term with scientific background - there is some criteria that should be fulfilled - namely a seamless nitrification - you are trying to redefine this term to mean not acute toxic water. I do not accept that because of many reasons

This tank was started with the 15 steps method - I introduce 1 fish and CUC day 2 and corals day 3. I followed the feeding protocol in 15 steps in order to establish a proper nitrification with help of rising biolad in the form of food (hence the amount of ammonia excreted from the clown fish gills)


This method is a general method working for all type of aquariums and size of wallets. Today - there is 50 + fish and the bioload (feeding) is around 20 g frozen freshwater cyclops and around the same amount of frozen artemia a day. Many sensitive species

Let me ask something - when you measure things like NO3, PO4, Ca and so one - you do not measure these for other purpose than acute toxicity?. Its the same for me then I measure the NO2 concentrations. The second step of nitrification is the most sensitive microbiological process I know of. If the second step does not kick in naturally - there is some upcoming trouble at the horizont. It is my early missile warning system.

What is your full biolad today (bioload = food to the system) ? How many fish?

Sincerely Lasse
 
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ClownWrangler

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Arag-Alive substrate is my secret weapon (From Petco)

I remember cycling being a nightmare with freshwater tanks and I used the complex methods mentioned here, but I have found that with saltwater tanks, if you throw in a few live rocks or live substrate, a tank is cycled instantly. Maybe its just luck, but I have a 2 x 20 gallon tanks and 5x 10 gallon tanks all going strong adding fish and BTAs the day of setup. The first one well over a year ago with 5 RBTAs attached to a live rock thrown in hours after setup in a 20 gallon long. They all have Arag-alive substrate, which may be the key to my success, its like live rock in a bag, but crushed up into aggregate. The only fish I have lost to Ammonia or nitrite spikes were in QT (yea I feal bad about that), never have I lost any in a main tank doing it this way. I did lose a couple of BTAs along the way, but it was due to having more than one type in the same tank. All the small tanks I started this way with one BTA and 1-2 clowns has gone without issue. Also a 10 gallon frag tank started this way about 6-8 months ago is doing fine.

I think the key is to start off with a very small bio load, something to seed the tank with, not that bacteria in a bottle crap, and work up by adding fish gradually. Even one small live rock or a live substrate will work fine this way. Even just a sponge filter transfered from an establish tank will suffice. Use a black molly or two for the first few weeks to be safe. They will also tell you if you got ich in your tank.
 

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@LRT If you set up a QT tank - is your method of instant cycling usable?

A very cheap and easy trick for setting up QT tanks is to have a small internal foam filter in the sump of the DT at least 3 weeks before the start of the QT. lift it over and voila - A QT with complete nitrification cycle is instant created.

Sincerely Lasse
 

ClownWrangler

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Another way to instantly cycle a tank is with large amounts of macro algae. It provides a tone of surface area with established nitrifying bacteria and to some extent will even take up Ammonia directly. The only caveat to this is that you will have to dose nitrate, phosphate and chaeto-grow for a while, or it will starve and die from low nutrients until the tank is established.
 

Lasse

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and to some extent will even take up Ammonia directly
Not even some extent - it will take up much of the ammonia. Also - nitrification bacteria have a heaven on the surface of algae - during light time free access to excess oxygen.

Sincerely Lasse
 

ClownWrangler

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@LRT If you set up a QT tank - is your method of instant cycling usable?

A very cheap and easy trick for setting up QT tanks is to have a small internal foam filter in the sump of the DT at least 3 weeks before the start of the QT. lift it over and voila - A QT with complete nitrification cycle is instant created.

Sincerely Lasse

Like I mentioned, I lost a few fish in QT because I was not careful. These were situations where cycling the tank was deliberately avoided for medication.
 
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