Skimmer or Refugium

If you can only have one, Skimmer or Refugium?


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I’ve just set up my UNS 90LA and the back compartments are tight. I have the media tower for floss on top, biocubes middle, and carbon/gfo on bottom.

In the middle compartment I can only fit a skimmer or refugium.

Which do you think would be the better choice for stability and nutrient export? I can only have one.
 
I vote a skimmer, if nothing else for better gas exchange, even if it's not a very efficient skimmer. I don't believe the very small refugiums in AIO tanks are that effective, but I've never tried one myself. Water changes can be a big help on smaller tanks like these.

Good luck!
 
Skimmer gets my vote
 
I guess it’s unanimous! Skimmer it is, when the time comes.
 
Skimmers have the added benefit of pulling things out before you may see them. For instance, if an organism dies it could start mitigating the waste quicker than a refugium. Or if an angry critter releases some sort of toxin. You can also use it to help remove certain medications and chemicals from the water.

I think you asked a good question and made a good choice!
 
You can also use it to help remove certain medications and chemicals from the water.
Which medicines and chemicals do a skimmer remove?

My answer is not as the others because they are both good but for different things. The question is what is the most important for you - to promote gas exchange and oxygen import or reduce nutrients?

Sincerely Lasse
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I’ll go with the skimmer and I can always do a chaeto reactor later if I want the benefits of a refugium.
 
Which medicines and chemicals do a skimmer remove?

My answer is not as the others because they are both good but for different things. The question is what is the most important for you - to promote gas exchange and oxygen import or reduce nutrients?

Sincerely Lasse

I don't know a complete list (Jay would know better than I do) but Melafix is one that immediately comes to mind.

Pretty much anything that makes a skimmer go crazy, unless it's happening from dying organisms targeted by the chemical. Soap would be an easy example, but not one we'd add intentionally. If I spilled soap in my tank I'd prefer a skimmer!
 
Pretty much anything that makes a skimmer go crazy, unless it's happening from dying organisms targeted by the chemical. Soap would be an easy example, but not one we'd add intentionally. If I spilled soap in my tank I'd prefer a skimmer!
That a skimmer go crazy does not mean that just the chemical will be removed - its only means that the chemical in question has altered the surface tension of your water, thereby pumping a large amount of water into the skimmer cup.

Sincerely Lasse
 
That a skimmer go crazy does not mean that just the chemical will be removed - its only means that the chemical in question has altered the surface tension of your water, thereby pumping a large amount of water into the skimmer cup.

Sincerely Lasse

This might be a learning opportunity for me. Maybe I'm thinking of the process incorrectly.

In my mind, the way I see foam fractionation working is that bubbles rise through the water, picking up hydrophobic molecules on their surface. As the foam collects, the more-coated the bubbles are and the stronger their surface tension. This makes them harder to pop. This is why we see foam accumulate over time as opposed to immediately frothing into the cup when the skimmer is first turned on (and tuned). The concentration of these molecules has to build-up.

I typically think of soap as an example. The higher the concentration of soap in the bubble, the less likely it is to pop, and the more likely it is to remain until it spills over into the collection cup. So I figured protein skimmers worked by concentrating and removing molecules that alter the surface tension of the water.
 
IMO - the right explanation is something like this below. it was a long time ago that I study these things and my bad memory force me to use AI in order to update both my memory and knowledge

The foam you get in a skimmer at 35 psu is a result of many different physical laws.

In general - 35 psu has a too high ion concentration to provide good foam formation for most substances that are not amphiphilic (bipolar—one part loves water and the other hates water). However - with these amphiphilic substances (proteins is amphiphilic) - then it's a different matter. The high ion concentration together with the tiny bubbles in a skimmer force amphiphilic substances to the air/water surface of the bubbles. (thermodynamic driving force / "salting-out") Upon reaching this interface , they undergo surface denaturation, whereby the hydrophobic end attaches to the gas phase at the interface and the hydrophilic end attaches to the water. What happens next is that the amphiphilic substances form a rigid, viscoelastic network (intermolecular cross-linking/gel formation) that stabilizes the foam which builds up and is transferred into the skimmer cup.

What could disrupt this foam formation and cause the foam to collapse?

My memory played a bit of a trick on me when I stated that the interfering substances acted primarily by lowering surface tension—that is only part of what happens.

Since the foam structure at 35 psu is entirely dependent on this rigid, viscoelastic network—formed as a result of the surface denaturation of the amphiphilic substances—this matrix can collapse via distinct chemical and physical pathways.

Since oils and fats have lower surface tension, they can easily penetrate the pre-existing film of amphiphilic substances (the spreading trajectory).

The oil forms local “bridges” within the bubble wall. The oil molecules do not form continuous, cross-linked intermolecular networks. The surrounding capillary pressure causes water molecules to be rapidly drawn away from the oil surface—a process known as dewetting. Immediate thinning and a mechanical rupture of the bubble wall occur.

Furthermore, the hydrophobic pockets of the amphiphilic substances can bind directly to oils and fats, thereby impairing their ability to undergo surface denaturation.

Because detergent molecules are significantly smaller and diffuse more readily, they move faster toward the air-water interface, thereby physically displacing the amphiphilic substances (competitive adsorption).

Within the water column itself, detergent monomers encapsulate the amphiphilic substances. This masks the non-polar regions of these substances, neutralizes the "salting-out effect," and eliminates the thermodynamic driving force that causes the amphiphilic substances to migrate toward the air bubbles (macromolecular solubilization).

In freshwater with low calcium and magnesium ion concentrations—"soft" water—detergents form their own foam, but this detergent layer cannot withstand shear forces at the interface. In "hard" water and saltwater, a capillary suction pump forms where three bubbles meet; this drains water from the foam structure (Young-Laplace Law), causing the foam column to collapse once the robust network formed by the amphiphilic substances has been removed. In saltwater with a salinity of 35 psu (in the absence of detergents), it is precisely this strong network formed by the amphiphilic substances that counteracts these capillary suction forces.

Summary

Oil, grease, and cleaning agents lower the surface tension locally in different ways, but the result is the same—the foam column collapses.

You can test this yourself: take one or two fish food pellets, lift the skimmer lid, and drop them into the foam column.

It is important to note that I compiled the text above using my existing knowledge and updated it through a discussion with an AI agent (Google). I have also use the term amphiphilic substances since substances other than proteins—which are bipolar—may be present in a reef aquarium. It is worth noting that neither my existing knowledge nor my updated information confirms the common belief among aquarists that non-bipolar substances—such as bacteria or unspecified uncharged organic compounds—are effectively removed by a protein skimmer.

Sincerely Lasse
 
Purely anecdotal but I believe my skimmer also brought my pH up from 7.7/8.0 to around 8.1/8.3. I assume it's doing more for gas exchange in my system than anything else.
Yes - beside protein skimming - gas exchange is the best thing with a skimmer IMO

Sincerely Lasse
 

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