roryb24
Valuable Member
You still use the Coral Snow with micro bactor7 in it? of have you switched to something else since back then when you did that write up?
Some of my Acro Collection
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Thanks for chiming in Sonny!
Observation is key in this hobby! The testing part is fun for me, I like seeing the numbers change lol.
Have you ever added any particulate foods or zeozyme into your combination?
OP
OP
It's that time of day again!
RRA Ultimate Orange Passion, boy does this piece have a crazy origin story...
This one is so sick! The new growth is is an awesome baby blue, then it transitions to orange! What a striking contrast!!!
At this pace, this piece might tie my CRT Rainbow Explosion (Hung's Rainbow) as the craziest smoothskin acro.
RRA Ultimate Orange Passion, boy does this piece have a crazy origin story...
This one is so sick! The new growth is is an awesome baby blue, then it transitions to orange! What a striking contrast!!!
At this pace, this piece might tie my CRT Rainbow Explosion (Hung's Rainbow) as the craziest smoothskin acro.
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Just take my money and send me frags lolIt's that time of day again!
RRA Ultimate Orange Passion, boy does this piece have a crazy origin story...
This one is so sick! The new growth is is an awesome baby blue, then it transitions to orange! What a striking contrast!!!
At this pace, this piece might tie my CRT Rainbow Explosion (Hung's Rainbow) as the craziest smoothskin acro.
Charlie the Reefer
Well-Known Member
So... I've been reading and re-reading this. It's a lot/new to me and still trying to take it all in. I've been running my tank without dosing any carbon/bacteria/aminos/coral food whatsoever. I'm not going to jump into anything drastic but I just would like to comment that I think these concepts are very interesting. I will be studying this stuff for awhile.Today, I had an awesome opportunity to visit Ryan (Chummingham's Reef) one of my great reefing friends!
It's always a pleasure to see his set up. I was able to try out my magic concoction on his system and see the results, very promising. I also snagged some amazing pieces from the Doctor himself!
These photos were taken immediate after dipping so they look a bit beat up, but boy did I feel like a kid in a candy shop
Chummingham's Reef Something Sinister Grafted Granulosa, excited to add another grafted smooth skin to my collection! The deep maroon and green/yellow swirls make this one really easy on the eyes lol
Tyree Pink Lemonade, it's probably been a decade since I bought a piece of pink lemonade. It was one of my first collector acros, an incredibly sentimental Acro.I just had to add it back to the collection. Such a great classic, and I think Ryan's is the most yellow pink lemonade I've seen!
Chummingham's Reef Hippie Juice, I'm absolutely floored by this thing! Just WOWOWOWOWOW! It's like a much nicer vivid's confetti, but like all nice things in this hobby it means that this thing grows slow
Chummingham's Reef Great White Bull, this one reminds of the classic RMF Red Devil Nasuta. Now imagine if the red devil was bright yellow and blue!
Just for some further insight, my trials have changed how I view nutrient control/management. Would you believe me if I told you that my system fluctuates ~ .6 ppm of phosphates?? This is within one day and without the use of GFO! Last night after dosing my concoction my Hanna Phosphorous checker could not calculate the value because it was too high. Today, the phosphate measures at .166 ppm.
My nitrates are also at an astounding 74 ppm today. This particular system has a tendency to run higher nutrients, but is capable of lowering them at an extremely fast rate. Bear in mind that my system has a very high biomass and is packed with established acropora colonies.
Most of my recent photos came from the system where the Nitrate = 74ppm and Phos = .166
So you can be the judge about whether what I'm doing is "right" or "wrong".
It really goes to show that numbers are just numbers and that they cannot be relied on solely to address ailments in your system.
I think that people misunderstand the mechanisms behind "high nutrient" systems. I treat "high nutrient" systems as systems that are capable of metabolizing and processing an extreme amount of FOOD. A "high nutrient" system should be able to convert an immense amount of food and nutrients into biomass. Just having high residual N and P is not akin to having a "high nutrient".
I do not think that long term exposure to high levels of N or P is a good thing for corals (perhaps some), but the conversion of high levels of N or P into a bioavailable form is a great thing! How do we do this? By leveraging bacteria!
Let's think about why we dose N and P in the first place. We commonly dose N and P in order to chase better coral coloration/health. This is directly related to the nutrition that the coral receives, whether through photosynthesis or through prey capture. I presume that the corals get the majority of the N and P they need through the prey that they capture and ingest from their polyps and not directly through osmosis or absorbing through their tissue, but I could be wrong. Would it not make sense that their main form of ingestion is through the polyp and not through the tissue?
Our ultra-filtered systems oftentimes can register near 0 values of N and P. This makes N and P a limiting factor in our reef tanks.
Now think about what that does to the microbiome. Competition becomes extra fierce when resources become extremely scarce. This creates an ecological niche for opportunistic organisms to exploit. This could explain why we experience rtn or weird algal issues in established systems when we drop our nutrients suddenly. The microbiome is instantly starved and destroyed, leading to a chaotic episode of ecological succession.
If it were only as simple as having high N and P for coral success, then a brand new system that is mid-cycle would be best for corals. But it's not! The key is the robustness and curation of the microbiome. A brand new system does not have the necessary microbiome to support SPS corals and that's why so many people lose their first sps coral and continue losing them until their tank magically "stabilizes".
Eventually the system is inoculated with enough beneficial bacteria/coral mass that the system is able to compete against pathogenic microbes and withstand major stress events.
By creating an environment that is conducive to the growth of beneficial microbes we are directly feeding our corals and amplifying competition to compete against pathogenic microbes.
My method attempts to mimic the nutrient surges that corals experience in the wild. By leveraging probiotic bacteria and enzymes to "digest" particulate foods, aminos, and trace elements I am essentially gut loading bacteria which are then easily captured by the corals. The unconsumed bacteria will serve to reinforce the tank's population and ward off unwanted microbes.
My experience with feeding acros has always been so-so. I just never know if they eat any of the large particles found in most coral foods. However, when I dose my concoction the majority of acros will instantly display their mesenterial filaments. I think that this is a feeding response due to the massive influx of easily accessible prey. The next day I notice plump polyps on my acros and the tissues appears to be more voluminous.
This paper notes that elevated nitrates and phosphates "did not cause significant mortality". It was the elevated levels of DOC's that led to the most coral mortality.
This "suggests that high levels of DOC rapidly disrupt the balance between the coral and its associated microbes. In support of this hypothesis, Kuntz et al. (2005) showed that continual exposure to elevated DOC leads to an exponential increase in coral mortality... This could disrupt the balance between the different Bacteria, possibly leading to overgrowth of a member of the community and subsequent coral mortality. Another possibility is that enrichment of a subset of the community allows these Bacteria to outcompete other Bacteria that could have important defensive (i.e. antibiotic production) or metabolic roles (i.e. carbon or nitrogen fixation)."
So let me interpret this, and apply my rationale.
In our closed systems, equilibrium cannot be attained without OUR direct input. It is the nature of closed systems to favor one extreme or another when there is not direct human intervention. Our systems are extremely volatile and require our diligence to maintain smooth operation.
Also, a lot of the biological processes that occur in our tanks are not visible to the human eye and are influenced by a myriad of other reef chemistry factors that we may not fully understand yet. We also know that corals prey and can "farm" bacteria with their mucus. Through routine usage of my concoction I believe that I am controlling my DOC levels and promoting beneficial microbial growth while keeping the pathogens at bay.
So, it could be plausible that over time there could be a major stress event that occurs in our system, resulting in a reshuffling of the microbiome. Their are also so many things out of our control that can influence our systems health too! Poor air quality, dirty hands, dirty equipment, dirty rags, seasonal changes, there are so many factors that can influence the microbial life in our tanks. Even if these bacterial populations reach a healthy equilibrium in our tanks, it is only a matter of time before a stress event creates a catastrophe.
This disturbance could lead to pathogenic bacteria dominating your system and causing you endless headache as you scramble to figure out why you can't keep anything alive. I believe that the routine dosing of probiotic bacterial strains could alleviate this issue drastically by maintaining microbial and nutritional stability. This is a proactive approach towards maintaining microbial stability. If the beneficial bacterial population is always high then there leaves no room for opportunistic microbes and pathogens to take root. The probiotic bacteria continually consume the DOC in our water and it is our job to continually provide the proper nutrition to these bacterial colonies so that they can keep the nasties away. My method aims to culture probiotic bacteria in a separate container allowing them to proliferate and absorb nutrients. Once administered to the system you are no longer polluting your tank by putting in a bunch of decaying particulate foods, but instead feeding a rich bacterial blend loaded with nutrients that corals easily capture.
If you were experiencing a major stress event and were dosing probiotic supplements it is plausible that you could reinforce the microbiome until the stress event passed resulting in minimal losses, but this is just a theory at the moment. I don't have any concrete proof, but I have had more success at fighting RTN and the coral stabilizing after the skin sloughs off. Probiotics might be a more efficient and more environmentally conscious alternative to antibiotics!
This article discusses the effects of high nitrate and phosphate and its effect on Euphyllia. It does not mention much about the DOC content in the water but shows the effects of limiting N and P. Euphyllia aren't exactly acros, but there could be a similar result observed.
Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates
Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with din…www.sciencedirect.com
Continual usage of my concoction has resulted in extreme calcium demands and I have had to supplement additional calcium. Growth has also become visble on all of my acros and stunted pieces have started to regrow. I think this is evident from my calcium demands suddenly skyrocketing. The alk is kept relatively stable through dentrification and my calcium reactor and kalk. Acros are no longer growing at a snails pace and colors have improved immensely! The acros have developed thicker tissue and exude a brilliance that was not present prior.
Again this is my experience so far, please don't go out of your way to try my methods as I am still working on refining the process. However, if you want to add any valuable input or insight or are curious about anything please feel free to discuss on this thread or PM me. This is only the tip of the iceberg!
Prompted by Sunny's post, I went down a rabbit hole and studied him/his aquarium/methods, and I can see why he made that comment. This article by him (June 2022) echoes a lot of your sentiments... It's an interesting (and informative) read (actually, I'd be surprised if you haven't read it, but I'm plugging it anyways):
Again, his findings echo yours (albeit I can see where his philosophy slightly differs). I also discovered that Sunny is the guy behind the PC Rainbow in my tank (Pro Corals!) This hobby amazes me sometimes....
There's few hobbies where it's so feasible to leave behind such a tangible legacy.Also - great pics as always CRT!
OP
OP
Yep! Sonny is an inspiration in this hobby and has definitely left his legacy in many of our tanks. Mine included!So... I've been reading and re-reading this. It's a lot/new to me and still trying to take it all in. I've been running my tank without dosing any carbon/bacteria/aminos/coral food whatsoever. I'm not going to jump into anything drastic but I just would like to comment that I think these concepts are very interesting. I will be studying this stuff for awhile.
Prompted by Sunny's post, I went down a rabbit hole and studied him/his aquarium/methods, and I can see why he made that comment. This article by him (June 2022) echoes a lot of your sentiments... It's an interesting (and informative) read (actually, I'd be surprised if you haven't read it, but I'm plugging it anyways):
Again, his findings echo yours (albeit I can see where his philosophy slightly differs). I also discovered that Sunny is the guy behind the PC Rainbow in my tank (Pro Corals!) This hobby amazes me sometimes....
Also - great pics as always CRT!
I use to have massive colonies of PC Rainbow and PC Superman Table back in the day. I'm sure if you dive back deep enough in this thread you can find pictures of a few of my colonies.
I think the main difference between Sonny's approach and mine is that I incorporate a lot of coral foods/aminos/trace elements alongside the bacteria dosing. I also do not dose everything into the system directly, instead I let everything sit for about 8 hours in a container. I think this tackles a critical issue of carbon/bacteria dosing : Nutrient Depletion.
Nutrient Depletion
As Sonny stated in article, nutrient depletion is a very real possibility when carbon/bacterial dosing. The added bacteria will begin to metabolize whatever is in the tank, and the additional carbon input will further promote existing bacteria to reproduce. This will rapidly reduce the nutrients that already exist in your system, sometimes too fast.
By mixing in a separate container I can choose the specific probiotic strains I want to promote and gutload them with nutrients and trace elements. The bacteria are provided an environment that is rich with nutrients and limited predators, so they are allowed to proliferate and develop. If the bacteria deplete this container of nutrients it will not harm the system as you did not deplete your tank of nutrients, only the dosing vessel. Now, the bacteria are loaded with nutrients. The bacteria then act as the transport method of nutrients directly to your corals.
Then, once dosed into the system the corals will prey on the bacteria and assimilate the nutrients into their own biomass.
Sonny does not use any coral foods, instead he feeds his fish heavily. I do too, but I have also collected a bunch of coral foods over the years and decided to use them instead of letting them go to waste. Like Sonny said, most corals do not respond well or actively eat those particulates. But the bacteria have no qualms! The longer I let my concoction rest, the more I see the sediment and coral food particulates dissolve. The feeding response from the acros is like no other individual product I have used! Imagine you are "momma birding" your corals. The bacteria and enzymes in my mixture begin to break down the coral foods and transform those nutrients into a bioavailable live feed of bacteria.
As you can see from some of test results, N and P consumption in my systems is insane. The swings are mind boggling.
All that excess N and P from the water column is processed by the bacteria within a short period of time and you can see directly where all those nutrients are going. Coral tissue becomes much more thick and you'll notice the polyps on your sps change. They develop longer and fuller polyps which I assume is a result from the constant bacterial feed that is being dosed in my systems. It's like with LPS corals, if you feed them consistently you can train them to display their feeder tentacles more often. I feel that the same would apply to SPS too??
Can you imagine the microbial biomass that is need to consume 50+ ppm nitrate and .6 ppm of phosphate in one day?!?!? So imagine what would happen if I did not increase my feeding to match this type of consumption...
In the past, I use to carbon/bacteria dose directly into the system. This would result in an instant nutrient drop as the bacteria multiplied rapidly and ravaged all the available nutrients. If not noticed in time this would lead to the corals starving and mortality. Putting some type of feed along with the bacteria provides a cushion for system so that it never goes to 0. The amount of nutrients needed to sustain a rapidly reproducing bacterial colony is exponential. If you do not increase your feed along with carbon/bacteria dosing it WILL LEAD TO FAILURE!
Charlie the Reefer
Well-Known Member
This was a very fascinating and eye opening read for me. Still processing a lot of it and have much to learn. I won’t take any drastic action but thank you for the thoughts, going to ruminate on it for a bit and contemplate my next course of action! Again thank you. I can’t tell you how helpful this discussion is for me!
Hi Allan,
After reading your great write up about your coral concoction of food. Are you still carbon dosing into the food concoction or is the carbon source coming from the food source. I.e. AminS, FM Organics, etc?
Just trying to understand how your main tank PO4 and No3 goes down from being so high when you don't add carbon source into the tank?
Thank you!
PS the orange dragoncicle I got from you in March suddenly RTN.
I was moving it around trying to get the orange color. It was turning more red on me thus the move...
Will have to get another one from you after I try your food concoction.
After reading your great write up about your coral concoction of food. Are you still carbon dosing into the food concoction or is the carbon source coming from the food source. I.e. AminS, FM Organics, etc?
Just trying to understand how your main tank PO4 and No3 goes down from being so high when you don't add carbon source into the tank?
Thank you!
PS the orange dragoncicle I got from you in March suddenly RTN.
I was moving it around trying to get the orange color. It was turning more red on me thus the move...
Will have to get another one from you after I try your food concoction.
OP
OP
I don't dose an explicit carbon source, I believe there is a ton of organic carbon and other forms from all the additives that I mix together. The MEcoral aminos also has acetic acid, so that acts as a carbon source as well. I think the bacterial colonies have reached an equilibrium in my system. Following every consecutive dose I experience a prolonged feeding response from the acros. I think this is because the acros are actively catching prey for the duration of time where the bacterial load in the water is high.
As this is happening, I think the bacteria multiply as they are no longer constricted to my dosing vessel and have access to the entire tank's resources. After some time the coral stop exhibiting this feeding response, I think this is when the bacteria load has diminished back to normal levels. I have not had my nutrients go to 0 as I still feeding my fish heavy throughout the day and also follow up with another dose of my concoction after 1-2 days.
The orange dragoncicle I have placed in the back corner of my system and gets roughly 300 par, it doesn't like to get blasted with too much light from my experience. I'll make sure to include one in your next box, just remind me!
OP
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Goood Morning R2R! Polyp extension and health to the max!
OP
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Bacteria and enzymes at work!
A picture of the sediment last night right after mixing. I have a video on my instagram showing the reactions occurring inside the concoction. The bottle actually builds a substantial amount of pressure!
8 hours later, we see that the sediment has decreased! Something Yummy is happening!!!
A picture of the sediment last night right after mixing. I have a video on my instagram showing the reactions occurring inside the concoction. The bottle actually builds a substantial amount of pressure!
8 hours later, we see that the sediment has decreased! Something Yummy is happening!!!
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OP
roryb24
Valuable Member
You have the TSA Fruity Splice? would love to see the colors you pull out of it.
OP
OP
I don't have this piece unfortunately
The growth is of a different quality, the new tissue is much more developed and plump. It's a bit hard to say how much faster things are growing, but now I can see new growth daily.
OP
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MOAR GOODIES!
This one's getting some funky colors
CRT Trump Card, super fuzzy polyps!
I can see the light at the end of the tunnel! Lots of potential peaking through on this one
This one's getting some funky colors
CRT Trump Card, super fuzzy polyps!
I can see the light at the end of the tunnel! Lots of potential peaking through on this one
OP
OP
I don’t like it
Not because it is a bad light, just because it doesn’t mesh well with my current lighting setup. I’d have to get 5 fixtures to replace my 3 radions, and that seems like an unneeded expense.
If I was starting from a fresh slate I’d definitely consider them, but I don’t think I’ll be replacing my radions unless the reefis come out with a different form factor/increase their spread.
Definitely gonna stop by again soon. I think I’ll do my best to copy your methods. So far when I tried to mimic others it has not worked out long term. I’m a meticulous reefer in most cases and been doing this for 10+ years with the same issues year after year. Although with some great success attached to what I consider failures. I don’t change things fast and I let them ride rather than snap to something new at the first sign of trouble. This calls for some fellow reef talk and a bogalooga, delight and some other stuff. Never stopped by to pick up my Father’s Day gift to myself. Now I had a birthday too! I’m looking forward to it.
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