4theluvofcoral

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First and foremost, I just want to provide as much detail as I can so all the information needed is available. I know not all maybe relevant but I've never posted on a forum before asking for help either, so please bare with. We have a 125 gallon mixed (SPS,LPS, Softies, Sea Fans, NPS and Photosynthetic) Reef tank. Current tank residents include an Australian Harlequin Tusk fish, Yellow Eye Kole Tang, Fiji Foxface, Lawn Mower Blenny, Starry Eyed Blenny, a Peppermint shrimp, Arrow crab, Crinoid Squat Lobster and we have a bunch of hitchhikers from some live rock we introduced a while ago, fleshy limpets, tunicates, sponges, chitons etc. My boyfriend and I recently purchased an acro and pavona frag, our very first acropora and pavona coral. They shipped Monday (11/30) and arrived Tuesday (12/1) by the next morning (12/2) the acro exhibited RTN and was almost completely white, with pieces of flesh stripping off when I had checked on the tank, which I do every morning, it's my routine. The pavona is starting to show signs of STN Before this, about a couple weeks, we had introduced some red montipora and bubblegum digitata. Both of which have been doing very well and have started to grow from what we've observed. Sorry for the poor picture quality and the corals show up more in person than in pics, might need to invest in a better lens/filter. We also upgraded our lighting a month ago, well before we attempted/bought any SPS corals, to a 72" Aurora T5 LED Hybrid that I will also post the lighting schedule and intensity. I know that swings in parameters, ALK specifically cause RTN but does high Nitrates kill SPS? We literally just ran these tests, and we are stumped at what could be the cause of this. Please comment with any suggestions, adjustments or products that might be helpful, thanks!

Salifert Test Results:

NH3 (Ammonia) - 0
NO2 (Nitrite) - 0
NO3 (Nitrate) -80 mg/L
PO4 (Phosphate) -0.2 ppm
pH -8.2
KH/ALK (Alkalinity/Carbonate Hardness) -8.8
Ca (Calcium) -500 mg/L
O2 (Oxygen) -7
Mg (Magnesium) -1450 ppm
Sr (Strontium) -4 mg/L
I2 (Iodine) - Iodide 0.03 Iodate 0.03
Salinity (Refractometer) -1.027 *After test I added some RO/DI to bring it back down to 1.025 where it normally is.
[Red Sea Coral Pro Salt Mix is used]
[Maxspect Gyre XF 350 Wave pumps one operating at 40% Flow and the other is at 80%]


giesemann.PNG

IMG-0408.jpg

IMG-0409.jpg

IMG-0410.jpg
 
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4theluvofcoral

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Did you get the sellers params? That might be a clue.
Yes I did. When I asked this is what I got... "I keep my tank with NSW type of parameters... 7.0 alk, 425 ish calcium, 35 ppt. This is a hardy coral that usually does well once it settles in from shipping. It can handle a wide range of parameters and stuff. Like I said before, probably just a shipping deal - happens to everybody. I would not chase anything if your other stuff is OK."
 

terraincognita

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Salifert Test Results:

NH3 (Ammonia) - 0
NO2 (Nitrite) - 0
NO3 (Nitrate) -80 mg/L
PO4 (Phosphate) -0.2 ppm
pH -8.2
KH/ALK (Alkalinity/Carbonate Hardness) -8.8
Ca (Calcium) -500 mg/L
Mg (Magnesium) -1450 ppm
Did you get the sellers params? That might be a clue.

If I'm not wrong 80MG/L is the same as 80PPM?

That's your Nitrates?

That's the only major problem I see in your params.

CAL and MAG are a bit high IMO, and Alk should be higher in conjunction with Cal and Mag that high if you're dosing/doing WC's.

RedSea Coral Pro mixed to 12DKH at 35PPT...

so that you're 4 points down from the original mixed alk with your Cal and Mag over the amount of 35PPT mix of red sea salt makes me thinking your dosing schedule isn't properly figured out (if you're dosing) or something else is going on with precipitation when you're mixing your salt or some kind of something is incorrect.

If it's none of those then idk.

Trust your seller and take a refund :) and try again.
 
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4theluvofcoral

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Did you get the sellers params? That might be a clue.

If I'm not wrong 80MG/L is the same as 80PPM?

That's your Nitrates?
I believe so. mg/L is the unit of measure for Salifert brand and we know they are high but don't know if that's what's causing the RTN in the Acro and Pavona. None of the other corals or SPS are doing this or have done this, just the two newest introduced.
 
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terraincognita

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I believe so. mg/L is the unit of measure for Salifert brand and we know they are high but don't know if that's what's causing the RTN in the Acro and Pavona. None of the other corals or SPS are doing this or have done this, just the two newest introduced.
Super intense changes like going from 5 Nitrates to 80 can cause stress and then set on RTN especially after being shipped from how far?

with the weather as it is right now very cold what was the water temp and params when you got the coral?

I'm 100% guilt of it myself, but I generally try to keep the water my coral or fish arrive in until they have settled in for 3-4 days in-case I want to try to trace back to there as well.

LOTS of possible reasons for things to go wrong which is probably also why the seller is telling you to not chase the problem.

80PPM isn't a killer if they're acclimated or it was a slow climb to that by any means. I've had tanks up to 120PPM before and been able to balance it out without any deaths. But it absolutely would add stress and shock which to an already stressed coral could result in RTN (Which is basically just a nice way of saying dying really quickly no matter what the problem was.)

Still confused by your alk and cal and mag levels being so different from the standard RedSea Coral Pro Mix at 35PPT.
 
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4theluvofcoral

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Did you get the sellers params? That might be a clue.

If I'm not wrong 80MG/L is the same as 80PPM?

That's your Nitrates?

That's the only major problem I see in your params.

CAL and MAG are a bit high IMO, and Alk should be higher in conjunction with Cal and Mag that high if you're dosing/doing WC's.

RedSea Coral Pro mixed to 12DKH at 35PPT...

so that you're 4 points down from the original mixed alk with your Cal and Mag over the amount of 35PPT mix of red sea salt makes me thinking your dosing schedule isn't properly figured out (if you're dosing) or something else is going on with precipitation when you're mixing your salt or some kind of something is incorrect.

If it's none of those then idk.

Trust your seller and take a refund :) and try again.
No dosing and the only thing I use is Fuel by Aquavitro, I just mix it in with the foods I feed. My ALK is higher than the sellers but they are only wanting to replace the frag. It was a $500 frag and I expressed my concern because I don't really know other than high ALK or param swings, what would cause RTN.
 
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4theluvofcoral

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Super intense changes like going from 5 Nitrates to 80 can cause stress and then set on RTN especially after being shipped from how far?

with the weather as it is right now very cold what was the water temp and params when you got the coral?

I'm 100% guilt of it myself, but I generally try to keep the water my coral or fish arrive in until they have settled in for 3-4 days in-case I want to try to trace back to there as well.

LOTS of possible reasons for things to go wrong which is probably also why the seller is telling you to not chase the problem.

80PPM isn't a killer if they're acclimated or it was a slow climb to that by any means. I've had tanks up to 120PPM before and been able to balance it out without any deaths. But it absolutely would add stress and shock which to an already stressed coral could result in RTN (Which is basically just a nice way of saying dying really quickly no matter what the problem was.)

Still confused by your alk and cal and mag levels being so different from the standard RedSea Coral Pro Mix at 35PPT.
Yeah that was the other thing. The coral was suppose to arrive by 12 pm but didn't arrive until late afternoon after it said on Fedex tracking that there was an issue with the ETA. The bag was cooler than I would've liked but the coral looked good and I floated in the bag for 30 min before I put it in the tank.
 

terraincognita

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No dosing and the only thing I use is Fuel by Aquavitro. My ALK is higher than the sellers but they are only wanting to replace the frag. It was a $500 frag and I expressed my concern because I don't really know other than high ALK or param swings, would cause RTN.

I would highly suggest to take your bag of salt out of the bucket, and up turn it and mix it around DRY a few times before doing your next salt mix.

You DKH and Cal and Mag shouldn't be at those levels if you're JUST doing WC's and no dosing.

This is how your parameters should read out of your water before you change it in your tank.

Test your water next time before you add it to your tank, it should match these params almost perfectly.

Screenshot (121).png


Yeah that was the other thing. The coral was suppose to arrive by 12 pm but didn't arrive until late afternoon after it said on Fedex tracking that there was an issue with the ETA. The bag was cooler than I would've liked but the coral looked good and I floated in the bag for 30 min before I put it in the tank.

a 5 Degree F temp swing over 30 minutes CAN (not will) but CAN kill an sps on it's own. Especially if already stressed from shipping etc etc etc.

If the bag arrived at 70F and you brought it to 78F in 30 minutes. that's a big temp swing.

Who knows, again lots of possibilities other than your params.
 
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4theluvofcoral

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I would highly suggest to take your bag of salt out of the bucket, and up turn it and mix it around DRY a few times before doing your next salt mix.

You DKH and Cal and Mag shouldn't be at those levels if you're JUST doing WC's and no dosing.

This is how your parameters should read out of your water before you change it in your tank.

Test your water next time before you add it to your tank, it should match these params almost perfectly.

Screenshot (121).png




a 5 Degree F temp swing over 30 minutes CAN (not will) but CAN kill an sps on it's own. Especially if already stressed from shipping etc etc etc.

If the bag arrived at 70F and you brought it to 78F in 30 minutes. that's a big temp swing.

Who knows, again lots of possibilities other than your params.
My tank isn't at 78F it's between 73-75F and I didn't know there was any special requirement other than floating the bag to get it to match tank temp...
 
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terraincognita

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My tank isn't at 78F it's between 73-75F and I didn't know there was any special requirement other than floating the bag to get it to match tank temp...

Why do you keep it so low? Any reason in particular or just how you've always had it?

Most advanced hobbyist including online sellers I know are keeping their tanks on the warmer end to promote growth.

If he's keeping his tanks at 78-80 (I keep mine at 79), and then you are keeping them at 73, If they change permanent temperature that drastically in 2 days that CAN be an issue.

Again there's so many possibilities....... Seller tell you his temps?
 
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4theluvofcoral

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Why do you keep it so low? Any reason in particular or just how you've always had it?

Most advanced hobbyist including online sellers I know are keeping their tanks on the warmer end to promote growth.

If he's keeping his tanks at 78-80 (I keep mine at 79), and then you are keeping them at 73, If they change permanent temperature that drastically in 2 days that CAN be an issue.

Again there's so many possibilities....... Seller tell you his temps?
The temp is what it's always been at ever since we introduced our first corals and we have deep water species. I don't know about 78F that seems really high and most places we've purchased from don't keep their tanks that high. I'm not sure what the sellers temp is they never shared when I asked them for their params. I will ask specifically now though.
 

terraincognita

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The temp is what it's always been at ever since we introduced our first corals and we have deep water species. I don't know about 78F that seems really high and most places we've purchased from don't keep their tanks that high. I'm not sure what the sellers temp is they never shared when I asked them for their params. I will ask specifically now though.

Where are you in the US?

Every shop in Los Angeles is running those temps right now. :O

1. Your params vs the sellers while maybe might not be what's killing them, it's not contributing to stress after they're traveling across the states. If there's a lot of variations, it's going to add stress 100% especially on a nice $500 Frag I'm sure the seller is keeping in an "ideal SPS" type of environment since he's got such expensive merchandise.

2. Have you ever bought online before? 1,000,000% a 30 minute trip from a store to your tank is like wayyyy easier on the coral.

3. I would definitely still look into what's going on with your params.

A. You do have unnaturally high nitrates at 80PPM.

B. Your DKH Cal and Mag are not consistent with RedSea Mixing Recipes (The recipe I posted isn't a "suggested parameter grid" its the exact parameters your water from a RedSea Coral Pro Mix should have based on a mix to 35PPT (or about 1.0266SG) But your Cal is sitting over 500 and Mag over 1400 while your Alk is at 8.8

I'm not sure how you're getting to those parameters, unless something in your tank is consuming insane amounts of ALK that youre not catching. But I can't see how your Cal and Mag levels would be unaffected by that type of growth while your ALK just tanks.


Anyway. I'd definitely get the seller to hold off on shipping until you can pin point some more possibilities for sure. (I think that's why you originally came here to see if it was possibly that or just the shipping)

IMO it's MORE than the shipping. However I do think the shipping scenario you explained also didn't help them at all and very well could've killed them on their own.
 
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4theluvofcoral

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Where are you in the US?

Every shop in Los Angeles is running those temps right now. :O

1. Your params vs the sellers while maybe might not be what's killing them, it's not contributing to stress after they're traveling across the states. If there's a lot of variations, it's going to add stress 100% especially on a nice $500 Frag I'm sure the seller is keeping in an "ideal SPS" type of environment since he's got such expensive merchandise.

2. Have you ever bought online before? 1,000,000% a 30 minute trip from a store to your tank is like wayyyy easier on the coral.

3. I would definitely still look into what's going on with your params.

A. You do have unnaturally high nitrates at 80PPM.

B. Your DKH Cal and Mag are not consistent with RedSea Mixing Recipes (The recipe I posted isn't a "suggested parameter grid" its the exact parameters your water from a RedSea Coral Pro Mix should have based on a mix to 35PPT (or about 1.0266SG) But your Cal is sitting over 500 and Mag over 1400 while your Alk is at 8.8

I'm not sure how you're getting to those parameters, unless something in your tank is consuming insane amounts of ALK that youre not catching. But I can't see how your Cal and Mag levels would be unaffected by that type of growth while your ALK just tanks.


Anyway. I'd definitely get the seller to hold off on shipping until you can pin point some more possibilities for sure. (I think that's why you originally came here to see if it was possibly that or just the shipping)

IMO it's MORE than the shipping. However I do think the shipping scenario you explained also didn't help them at all and very well could've killed them on their own.
Yes I'm in Southern California. Yes I've bought from local fish shops and online.

This frag was from a person I bought through on this forum in Marketplace.

I don't know why there's an abundance of Calcium or why they don't match up with Red Sea guide but all I do is take my RO/DI water and add salt, let it mix with a pump, test it with the refractometer and add more until I'm at 1.025. My calcium is not over 500 it's sitting right at 500. The Strontium test also confirmed this is well.

Nitrates might be high because of feedings as mentioned I have NPS that require more feedings than everything else but it was higher before so it has come down some.

I don't know what would be consuming ALK that quickly other than the Montipora colony I have.

Yes I have told them to not send another until I am confident it will survive.
 

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I agree with most of what has been said. Everyone I know runs their tanks somewhere between 77 and 82. I run mine at 80. Your Nitrates and Phosphates are both much higher than ideal, and that could cause a major issue. I shoot for N03 10-20, and P04 .05-.12, otherwise your numbers look good. I would recommend trying a more hardy Acro like a Green Slimer to see how it does before adding more expensive and delicate pieces. Once you see some encrusting from the Slimer you should be good to try some thing more challenging.
 
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4theluvofcoral

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I agree with most of what has been said. Everyone I know runs their tanks somewhere between 77 and 82. I run mine at 80. Your Nitrates and Phosphates are both much higher than ideal, and that could cause a major issue. I shoot for N03 10-20, and P04 .05-.12, otherwise your numbers look good. I would recommend trying a more hardy Acro like a Green Slimer to see how it does before adding more expensive and delicate pieces. Once you see some encrusting from the Slimer you should be good to try some thing more challenging.
Yeah that's what my boyfriend and I said we are going to do is get a new heater and test with a "cheaper" frag/colony and see if it survives.
 

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How often are you testing?
How often and how large are your water changes?
Can you try testing the water you mix for water changes prior to use?

The good news is that the montis you have are ok. So you're almost there.

I agree, grab a Slimer and try again after a couple of big water changes.

Re-test a few times and increase your testing frequency.

If you're ever headed to South OC, drop me a line. I'll send you home with a few test frags.
 
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4theluvofcoral

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How often are you testing?
How often and how large are your water changes?
Can you try testing the water you mix for water changes prior to use?

The good news is that the montis you have are ok. So you're almost there.

I agree, grab a Slimer and try again after a couple of big water changes.

Re-test a few times and increase your testing frequency.

If you're ever headed to South OC, drop me a line. I'll send you home with a few test frags.
We only test if we need to or suspect when something is off but now that we have more expensive corals coming in it's going to be more routine and regular.

We do 25 percent changes every week.

Yes we can test it, we haven' but didn't know it was a thing. We trust Red Sea mix, it's what we've always used.
 

terraincognita

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Everything else said also helpful.

birdsnest are cheap and a good sps as well to start with

do not not not not not raise your temp more than V 1 degree a week at most once you get a new heater

my current tanks just finishing the encrusting stage for all my sps also otherwise I’d gladly give you a frag as well. I’m in the valley.

if you’re in LA county I can tell you who has dirt cheap sps frags
 
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4theluvofcoral

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Everything else said also helpful.

birdsnest are cheap and a good sps as well to start with

do not not not not not raise your temp more than V 1 degree a week at most once you get a new heater

my current tanks just finishing the encrusting stage for all my sps also otherwise I’d gladly give you a frag as well. I’m in the valley.

if you’re in LA county I can tell you who has dirt cheap sps frags
Ok thanks will do!
 
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