Still having Ammonia Issues

[jeff williams]

I bet the most sensitive, die-in-a-millisecond of true free ammonia mine canary in that aquarium is that fine anthias

The plero lps will pull right in anytime there’s .25

Those fish are so sharp looking that’s a great tank.
If there is real ammonia in that tank, and no snail nor sand sifter is unaccounted for, then it’s being added in sourced water and that water w smell not nice/

I'm not excusing a wrong reading because the OP does have some misconceptions about ammonia and prime. Your observations of the pictures hold merit,however to base your comments about prime on a Google search is totally unscientific and therefore if you want people to believe the science behind your cycling of tanks and looking at a picture and saying there is no ammonia in the water. you need to make sure the science is behind your product comments also. I can also Google Red Sea test kit showing false readigs and have a 100k hits if there's no blind study done it's speculation. No disrespect intended you just treated the OP arrogantly

 

[brandon429]

It’s purely based on giant cycling threads - I keep linking all these up to it like an endless black hole of .25s


Hundreds of pic diagnostics


We make it a point to only base our work on what people’s aquariums do as a final outcome after taking steps where google helps reinforce why we are about to let go of a very serious paradigm- that a chemistry test is lying. Anyone claiming to diagnose ammonia off pics should be challenged agreed. They better have threads of accountability.

I find google a trove of repeating variables to learn from. It’s been critical to my reefing and yes there’s noise too


I know lack of pure method doesn’t go over well here and didn’t expect it to I respect good method

Possibly there’s an intuit technique soon to come about...for ammonia sensing.
I’m finding one can get far better results using some core rules about #days underwater than any test and the claim is based on science imo. Scholar had tons of data on biofilter establishment rates and the charts don’t vary much, that had neat takeaway for messy cycling threads which is just what this thread is. The keeper never really got to stamp there cycle complete. It’s complete.

 

[Larry L]

Ammonia is testing at 0.25 to 1.00 I have been dosing with Prime ever other day.

I think that's your problem - Prime will cause false positives on most test kits. Search around in the Reef Chemistry forum and you should be able to find info, I found this on the SenEye site:

Testing for ammonia with the test kits above might produce false readings after a water change if you add too much de chlorinator. Seachem's Prime conditioner will give false readings for ammonia, on both Nessler's Reagent and salicylate tests. Sodium thiosulfate, Na2S2O3, in Prime reacts with the chloride ion that is part of the test reagents. According to Seachem after 24 hours you will then be able to test again and get accurate readings.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Prime does not give false + , state your sources. I believe your reading the forums were people have confused the info that seachem has posted on there faq's. Prime converts nh3 to nh4 and test kits like api read This as total ammonia which people confuse with the use of gas exchange test kits like seachems that break the ammonia down and read both nh3 and nh4

I do not believe that your assertions are correct, either in how and why Prime works, or the potential for interference. It does not primarily detoxify ammonia simply by converting NH3 to NH4+. Any acid will do that, including perhaps Prime itself, but it would take a huge pH drop to be effective that way. A drop of 0.3 pH units will only drop NH3 by a factor of 2.

Measuring ammonia after Prime is problematic.

Nessler types of ammonia kits (yellow to orange colors) used with Prime can lead to brown colors that are off scale and are not necessarily an indication of free ammonia.

Salicylate ammonia test kits (yellow to green) can break apart the ammonia/Prime complex and make it look like ammonia is present when it is not (according to Seachem).

This is what Seachem says (among other, possible technically incorrect things :

http://www.seachem.com/support/foru...512-prime-and-false-positive-ammonia-readings

""Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest: Ammonia™ kit."

 

[Oceanwave45]

dang it! Here we go again!

 

[Oceanwave45]

I am so so confused right now!

 

[brandon429]

no confusion

your test is bad like all of google



I know how weird this feels, hold strong. watch the fish and the water coloration, I bet nothing changes. your corals look good, they'll close when that's real ammonia.

there is no source for the ammonia so far, an 8 mo reef tank has a massive demand for ammonia, nothing is left free in the water.

its oxidized fast as soon as waste is produced

that's just a particularly green kit you have there, I know how weird doing nothing feels.


ammonia has telltale symptoms

the tank w smell bad, clearly

water w cloud, corals close, and fish hover at the top panting.

all is norm so far, test is wrong. that much true ammonia would have already killed stuff.

trust takeaway:

Ammonia is a compound that your tank registers when there's a problem, a test kit may or may not. Ammonia has a massive bad measurable impact on a living biosystem, you'll know

ammonia never exists in a reef tank in constant low level supply due to massive demand, its gold in the reef, the organisms that make up the bulk of our bioloading (bacteria) want it like crack

it takes a massive dump of ammonia to overcome a living biofilter involving any normal amnts of live rock and sand + submersion time, 8 mos a plenty.

I like this thread very very much its the best api redo ive seen in a long time.

 

[Oceanwave45]

Okay great!!! So the test kits are bad? So I will go out today abs but a new testing kit and go from there

 

[brandon429]

get salifert ammonia

costs 3x as much, but works. prob not in pet store, has to amazon

if any test kit says that tank has low level ammonia, keep posting the readings as everything behaves normal. we very well might have more testing to discount depending on variables. api kits are sensitive to procedure...fill lines must be perfect. reagents shaken very well. test reading delayed after initial titration, such a dance.

salifert just works. that's only if you want to continue testing to have proof against the current readings, I myself will not own an ammonia test kit or it makes ammonia seem like it can appear unpredicted. it cannot. its the easiest compound to control in reefing. the way I account for it in my particular tank is by having no fish to die in secret among the rocks. handy benefit of very small reefs, though the overall reef is weaker to insults than a normal sized one.

What that means for your tank, is if you want to stop testing ammonia forever you can. always be able to account for your fish and snails, good to go. distilled water is my topoff, so no chance of ammonia there. I do not test for it.

we can cycle entire dry tanks without testing for it.

its shocking how many false .25 threads Im going to link your thread to over the next ten yrs.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I do not believe that your assertions are correct, either in how and why Prime works, or the potential for interference. It does not primarily detoxify ammonia simply by converting NH3 to NH4+. Any acid will do that, including perhaps Prime itself, but it would take a huge pH drop to be effective that way. A drop of 0.3 pH units will only drop NH3 by a factor of 2.

Measuring ammonia after Prime is problematic.

Nessler types of ammonia kits (yellow to orange colors) used with Prime can lead to brown colors that are off scale and are not necessarily an indication of free ammonia.

Salicylate ammonia test kits (yellow to green) can break apart the ammonia/Prime complex and make it look like ammonia is present when it is not (according to Seachem).

This is what Seachem says (among other, possible technically incorrect things :

http://www.seachem.com/support/foru...512-prime-and-false-positive-ammonia-readings

""Under the conditions of a salicylate kit the ammonia-Prime complex will be broken down eventually giving a false reading of ammonia (same as with other products like Prime®), so the key with a salicylate kit is to take the reading right away. However, the best solution ;-) is to use our MultiTest: Ammonia™ kit."

Forgive me for being slow in the uptake. But to clarify, do you belive ammonia is present is present in the system?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I am so so confused right now!

This is all dry rock? Exempt for the one rock on the right side of the tank?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Forgive me for being slow in the uptake. But to clarify, do you belive ammonia is present is present in the system?

Which system? The OP who has a reading and has also been dosing Prime in eight month old tank? Not sure, but I'd guess not.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Which system? The OP who has a reading and has also been dosing Prime in eight month old tank? Not sure.

Yes. Thank you.

 

[Oceanwave45]

This is all dry rock? Exempt for the one rock on the right side of the tank?

Yes you are correct dry rock and one rock that is live Tank is 8 month old

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Ammonia is now at Zero because I had to use prime - I dosed three times today because the ammonia was so high, the fish were at the bottom of the tank laying on the sand

The fish indicator is what is confusing to me now.

My seat of the pants would be to get some dr tims one and only.

 

[Oceanwave45]

I just hope you are correct because I am going to stop using prime. The only thing I have seen is the fish are toward the bottom of the tank.

But if there was ammonia I’d seeing the following

Anemones closed
Bubble coral closed
Fish at the top of the tank
Cloudy water

Correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't know how the organisms would particularly respond, but the water doesn't get cloudy with ammonia.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Toward the bottom , or gasping on the bottom?

 

[brandon429]

I see what Randy means about ammonia itself not being opaque, just meaning the associated death and decay of true ammonia and its loss cascade in the tank w smell and be very cloudy. true ammonia here overcoming all that live rock (after 8 mos, all is live) and sand would have to be a consistent, high input source causing that type of loss imo- since a cycled tank we know can oxidize a good 4+ ppm, 6 in some cycling threads.


goog:
"A "bacteria bloom" can also be caused by sudden increases in ammonia due to overfeeding or excess organic waste and decay. Losses of large numbers of bacteria due to power outages or other circumstances can also cause blooms. Test the aquarium water for ammonia and nitrite."


can you post another full tank shot real quick now that's its no prime? curious how it compares to the others.



the only way we can get a true read on your tank is to take no action for ammonia, since they're all testing confounds. if you think your tank is showing stress then we can. it will be clear, marked unmistakable stress and the fish will be seeking oxygen bigtime as gills burn.

no corals will be open they'll be near death's door in appearance. true sustained ammonia at that level over the last two hours alone would've done it. if the next pic is open corals and swimming fish we can feel much safer for sure cuz the reading will still show ammonia vs the tank which should be working normally in spite of

I was never thinking .25 ammonia would cause that loss. I always consider .25 against the known processing abilities of a cycled tank; that means the ammonia source is massive (+4 ppm) and in that, death of the tank will certainly occur

we never closed the case on your sourcewater or if we did I need to re read

you are using RO/DI and not well water right

 

[Oceanwave45]

I see what Randy means about ammonia itself not being opaque, just meaning the associated death and decay of true ammonia and its loss cascade in the tank w smell and be very cloudy. true ammonia here overcoming all that live rock (after 8 mos, all is live) and sand would have to be a consistent, high input source causing that type of loss imo- since a cycled tank we know can oxidize a good 4+ ppm, 6 in some cycling threads.


goog:
"A "bacteria bloom" can also be caused by sudden increases in ammonia due to overfeeding or excess organic waste and decay. Losses of large numbers of bacteria due to power outages or other circumstances can also cause blooms. Test the aquarium water for ammonia and nitrite."


can you post another full tank shot real quick now that's its no prime? curious how it compares to the others.



the only way we can get a true read on your tank is to take no action for ammonia, since they're all testing confounds. if you think your tank is showing stress then we can. it will be clear, marked unmistakable stress and the fish will be seeking oxygen bigtime as gills burn.

no corals will be open they'll be near death's door in appearance. true sustained ammonia at that level over the last two hours alone would've done it. if the next pic is open corals and swimming fish we can feel much safer for sure cuz the reading will still show ammonia vs the tank which should be working normally in spite of

I was never thinking .25 ammonia would cause that loss. I always consider .25 against the known processing abilities of a cycled tank; that means the ammonia source is massive (+4 ppm) and in that, death of the tank will certainly occur

we never closed the case on your sourcewater or if we did I need to re read

you are using RO/DI and not well water right

Okay for the sake of this “study” there is a tank shot from today right this moment! I will take another tonight and tomorrow and I will continue to post Ammonia reading using API until I can get another test kit which I will let you know once I change test kits