Store rescued Puffer, needs urgent help!

[Mhamilton0911]

Hello, a few of you helped me make the decision to go back to my LFS and rescue an urgent case.

About 3" shortspine Porcupine Puffer, looks terrible. Fully covered in ich, cloudy eyes, and possibly other ailments. I need help to decide the best course of action. I did buy fresh coppersafe and a test kit yesterday as well, but I can go back and get something else if that's better.

The shop owner says the puff came in on August 23rd., told me he's seen him eat, but only a few times, and only silverslides or krill. He did send me home with a little of what he was eating, but I'd like to vary his diet as soon as I can.

Last night at store and in bag he was very pale, but colored up slightly in a new tank.

New tank is a 10g treatment qt, 1.026 salinity, 78f. Bare bottom and fake plastic decorations so they can be sterilized. No bio filter but I have media from established tanks I can add in, but I didn't want to yet since they will be contaminated. I have lots of salt for many waterchanges for ammonia plus I do have prime on hand.

Pictures from in bag, and last night (looking right) and this morning (looking towards his left). He is breathing heavy this morning.


what is my best course of action, if like to get him on a treatment plan as soon as possible.

 

[chipchipbro]

#fishmedic @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

 

[SaJon]

Hello, a few of you helped me make the decision to go back to my LFS and rescue an urgent case.

About 3" shortspine Porcupine Puffer, looks terrible. Fully covered in ich, cloudy eyes, and possibly other ailments. I need help to decide the best course of action. I did buy fresh coppersafe and a test kit yesterday as well, but I can go back and get something else if that's better.

The shop owner says the puff came in on August 23rd., told me he's seen him eat, but only a few times, and only silverslides or krill. He did send me home with a little of what he was eating, but I'd like to vary his diet as soon as I can.

Last night at store and in bag he was very pale, but colored up slightly in a new tank.

New tank is a 10g treatment qt, 1.026 salinity, 78f. Bare bottom and fake plastic decorations so they can be sterilized. No bio filter but I have media from established tanks I can add in, but I didn't want to yet since they will be contaminated. I have lots of salt for many waterchanges for ammonia plus I do have prime on hand.

Pictures from in bag, and last night (looking right) and this morning (looking towards his left). He is breathing heavy this morning.


what is my best course of action, if like to get him on a treatment plan as soon as possible.

Awe, I'm invested now to see what's going on with this lil guy. I'll be following. Praying he makes it

 

[Mhamilton0911]

More info: in the 10g there's only 8 gallons so far so I have room to add medicated water. Plan is to change 4 gallons this morning and start to add whatever we decide medication wise.

 

[NotReefsafe]

Good luck!

 

[Mhamilton0911]

In my frantic reading the last few days I am now realizing NOT to use prime with coppersafe. The water that's in with him was used with prime, so I'll have to change it out with non-prime water before adding copper. My rodi is slow so I cheated and made lots of new water with treated Tap instead. Thankfully I realized this by reading over the current qt protocol in the stickies. If I'm slow to respond, I'm making water or changing it.

@Jay Hemdal , am I reading correct? Any water made with prime is no longer safe to add coppersafe to?

 

[SlugSnorter]

In my frantic reading the last few days I am now realizing NOT to use prime with coppersafe. The water that's in with him was used with prime, so I'll have to change it out with non-prime water before adding copper. My rodi is slow so I cheated and made lots of new water with treated Tap instead. Thankfully I realized this by reading over the current qt protocol in the stickies. If I'm slow to respond, I'm making water or changing it.

@Jay Hemdal , am I reading correct? Any water made with prime is no longer safe to add coppersafe to?

PSA: PRIME safe to use with COPPER POWER

7/13/2023 Note: There is still some question in my mind about using any of the three copper products (Cupramine, Copper Power and Coppersafe) with an EXCESS of any reducing agents. These can include formalin, sodium thiosulfate, Prime or possibly even Amquel. Anything that can break the...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Jay Hemdal]

In my frantic reading the last few days I am now realizing NOT to use prime with coppersafe. The water that's in with him was used with prime, so I'll have to change it out with non-prime water before adding copper. My rodi is slow so I cheated and made lots of new water with treated Tap instead. Thankfully I realized this by reading over the current qt protocol in the stickies. If I'm slow to respond, I'm making water or changing it.

@Jay Hemdal , am I reading correct? Any water made with prime is no longer safe to add coppersafe to?

No - It is using Prime in excess that may cause a problem with amine based copper products. If the Prime has reacted with free ammonia it is safe to use coppersafe. It may also be safe to use in all cases, but I won’t risk it….Because these companies do not divulge the chemical makeup of their products, it is up to us to try and deduce what can be safely mixed. I choose not to use any reducing agent with amine based coppers, just to be safe.
Humblefish’s test wasn’t quantified in terms of how much reactive Prime was present. Also, his saying there was no “spike” in copper levels wasn’t a valid observation - you won’t get a spike in actual copper levels, just an increase in free copper (which is more toxic). The test kits use a reducing agent and read total copper, so that won’t change.

In terms of the puffer, you need to get a treatment started ASAP. Either full copper or hyposalinity. You should add bio media from an established tank to control ammonia.

Jay

 

[AydenLincoln]

Poor guy! Let us know how he does. Hopefully you can save him but he looks so far gone.

 

[Mhamilton0911]

No - It is using Prime in excess that may cause a problem with amine based copper products. If the Prime has reacted with free ammonia it is safe to use coppersafe. It may also be safe to use in all cases, but I won’t risk it….Because these companies do not divulge the chemical makeup of their products, it is up to us to try and deduce what can be safely mixed. I choose not to use any reducing agent with amine based coppers, just to be safe.
Humblefish’s test wasn’t quantified in terms of how much reactive Prime was present. Also, his saying there was no “spike” in copper levels wasn’t a valid observation - you won’t get a spike in actual copper levels, just an increase in free copper (which is more toxic). The test kits use a reducing agent and read total copper, so that won’t change.

In terms of the puffer, you need to get a treatment started ASAP. Either full copper or hyposalinity. You should add bio media from an established tank to control ammonia.

Jay

Thanks for the clarification! I'm currently making more rodi, have 3 gallons so far, so I'm going to get more gallons made but in the meantime I'll transfer him to a 1 gallon holding container while I completely drain the prime used water to get that changed out with rodi. Could you do hypo+ copper? What should I mix the salt to?

Should I add him back to full strength copper or slowy ramp up?

 

[saltyfins]

 

[Tamberav]

I would not mix hypo + copper. I remember this being a no-no. I also don't see any reason to double the stress? You can't make ich more dead then dead.

Ramping up delays treatment and the fish may die from it's disease. Often people want to blame copper for a fish's death but it is more likely the fish died from the illness. I would just have a hanna copper tester to check levels.

 

[MnFish1]

Agree with @Jay Hemdal Immediate treatment - aereate the water - watch the ammonia. If you don't have RODI water - use tap water with a dechlorinator (not prime) - unless your community uses chloramines. You could also buy distilled water at the grocery store. The most important thing is immediate treatment. Good luck.

I.e. Something like Stress coat etc.

 

[MnFish1]

I would not mix hypo + copper. I remember this being a no-no.

Ramping up delays treatment and the fish may die from it's disease. Often people want to blame copper for a fish's death but it is more likely the fish died from the illness. I would just have a hanna copper tester to check levels.

Agree ramping up can be used for prophylaxis - as compared to active treatment.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Any pics by chance

 

[Tamberav]

If you have a store nearby, you can buy gallons of distilled to use instead of tap if the RODI is too slow.

 

[Mhamilton0911]

Thanks all!

Ok no hypo, just copper. Add to full strength copper, with rodi not tap with prime. Currently have 4 gals made, making more.

I did get a salifert copper test (all the store had) I'll order a hanna checker.

I'll move him to a new temp holding container with the fresh water made without prime, so I can drain and refill with rodi+salt (mixed to 1.026).

Coppersafe directions state 5ml to 4gallons. So I'll keep the tank at 8 gallons for easy math. I'll have 4 gals premixed with copper to use for waterchanges.

I'll add him back in slowly, drip acclimated to the copper treated water.

When should I try to feed him? The store gave me a few krill and silverslides as that was what they saw him eat. What else should I get for him?

Also I do want to state that this is my first time dealing with a disease. I've been super lucky to avoid it to this point, so all treatment plans are new to me, I've only read about them before.

 

[Mhamilton0911]

Any pics by chance

I did have pics in the first post, but I'll try to add a video....

 

[vetteguy53081]

I refreshed and see pics now . Follow with Jay on this

I did have pics in the first post, but I'll try to add a video....

 

[reef_1]

Did you really pick up that fish yesterday in that condition and done nothing with it for a day and then asking on forums what to do?

Either start a treatment immediately after pickup or if you dont have a plan then dont touch it.