Substitute for ChaetoGro/Chaeto grow?

[Azra]

Hi everyone!
Wanted to ask what would be good substitute for ChaetoGro in macroalgae tank?
I am located in Europe (Croatia) and can't get hold of Brightwells ChaetoGro nor Continuum Chaeto grow.

 

[macrouk]

Freshwater planted tank ferts - I’ve tried a few with no negative effects, I’ve seen others recommend TNC lite which you should be able to get hold of I think

 

[GoM_reefs]

Without knowing what storefronts you have availible, it's hard to recommend a specific product. However, you can look at hydroponics fertilizers, or powered fertilizer components (I personally really like Green Leaf Aquariums, but there are much cheaper options in many cases i.e. nitrate) to build your own mix. Seachem offers a nice range with their Flora lineup, which I use to supplement a homebrew NPK mix. Just be sure whatever you pick is copper free.

Looking at Cheatogrow, it seems to be a potassium fertilizer (0-0-1.3) with a heavy focus on micronutrients. Seachem Flourish has a nearly identical micronutrient composition with less potassium and no carbon. If you have access to Seachem products, you can dose Flourish alongside Flourish Potassium and a vodka carbon dose. If not, hydroponic micronutrient ferts can be used with potash and vodka dosing.

 

[Azra]

Freshwater planted tank ferts - I’ve tried a few with no negative effects, I’ve seen others recommend TNC lite which you should be able to get hold of I think

Unfortunately UK products are also off limits since Brexit.

 

[Azra]

Without knowing what storefronts you have availible, it's hard to recommend a specific product. However, you can look at hydroponics fertilizers, or powered fertilizer components (I personally really like Green Leaf Aquariums, but there are much cheaper options in many cases i.e. nitrate) to build your own mix. Seachem offers a nice range with their Flora lineup, which I use to supplement a homebrew NPK mix. Just be sure whatever you pick is copper free.

Looking at Cheatogrow, it seems to be a potassium fertilizer (0-0-1.3) with a heavy focus on micronutrients. Seachem Flourish has a nearly identical micronutrient composition with less potassium and no carbon. If you have access to Seachem products, you can dose Flourish alongside Flourish Potassium and a vodka carbon dose. If not, hydroponic micronutrient ferts can be used with potash and vodka dosing.

I do have access to many freshwater fertilizers, as for saltwater it's bit less wide array of products. There is some issues with US and UK products, some are available some are not, and I can't find any European product that is chaeto or macroalgae specific.
What would be tolerable dose of copper? I used Tropica Premium in my freshwater shrimp tank. As I recall it has 0.006% Cu and no nitrate and phosphate. Shrimps didn't have issues with it, but I am not sure if it would be a problem in saltwater. This is my first saltwater, so I am still gathering information.

 

[GoM_reefs]

Without knowing what storefronts you have availible, it's hard to recommend a specific product. However, you can look at hydroponics fertilizers, or powered fertilizer components (I personally really like Green Leaf Aquariums, but there are much cheaper options in many cases i.e. nitrate) to build your own mix. Seachem offers a nice range with their Flora lineup, which I use to supplement a homebrew NPK mix.

Looking at Cheatogrow, it seems to be a potassium fertilizer (0-0-1.3) with a heavy focus on micronutrients. Seachem Flourish has a nearly identical micronutrient composition with less potassium and no carbon. If you have access to seachom products, you can dose flourish alongside Flourish Potassium and a vodka carbon dose. If not, hydroponic ferts can be used with potash and vodka dosin

I do have access to many freshwater fertilizers, as for saltwater it's bit less wide array of products. There is some issues with US and UK products, some are available some are not, and I can't find any European product that is chaeto or macroalgae specific.
What would be tolerable dose of copper? I used Tropica Premium in my freshwater shrimp tank. As I recall it has 0.006% Cu and no nitrate and phosphate. Shrimps didn't have issues with it, but I am not sure if it would be a problem in saltwater. This is my first saltwater, so I am still gathering information.

My first instinct would be to say zero copper, but it really depends on what else you have, and I suppose there's always copper absorbers. Personally, Flourish Excel contains a minute amount of copper and I dosed it for years in a tank with no water changes. I even raised crabs from larvae in that tank, so your mileage may vary.

Macro nutrients are fairly simple, but I've had a hard time finding truly copper free micronutrients outside of the major brands unfortunately. On the other hand, most seawater mixes will have trace elements included, so whether or not you really need specialized micronutrients is debatable depending on your salt mix and water changes. Since you're just starting the tank, focus on keeping your basic macronutrients (NPK) availible and monitor your growth.

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

I do have access to many freshwater fertilizers, as for saltwater it's bit less wide array of products. There is some issues with US and UK products, some are available some are not, and I can't find any European product that is chaeto or macroalgae specific.
What would be tolerable dose of copper? I used Tropica Premium in my freshwater shrimp tank. As I recall it has 0.006% Cu and no nitrate and phosphate. Shrimps didn't have issues with it, but I am not sure if it would be a problem in saltwater. This is my first saltwater, so I am still gathering information.

To my understanding, it could be a problem (as discussed in the quote below), but whether it will be a problem or not is actually really complicated. The toxicity is impacted by the salinity, the osmoregulation of the individual species, the tolerance of individual species, the Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC) levels, the kinds of DOC, the kind of copper, etc.

- LC50 for Copper when tested on different inverts* (a mussel species, an oyster species, a copepod species, and two urchin species - one of the urchins was the sand dollar you have; a different test** used a limpet, a crab, and a mussel) ranged from ~0.002 to 0.2 (LC50 being a toxicology term for the dose needed before half of a given population dies from the toxin); the LC50 varies from one species to the other, and it varies dependent on a number of different factors (such as the bioavailability of the form of copper in the water).

Personally, just looking at the odds of getting a damaging to lethal level of copper in your water, I wouldn't use your water without DI.

*Test Report 1
https://setac.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/etc.45 **Test Report 2

Differential sensitivity of three marine invertebrates to copper assessed using multiple biomarkers - PubMed

Understanding how biomarkers relate to each other on exposure to particular contaminants in different species is key to their widespread application in environmental management. However, few studies have systematically used multiple biomarkers in more than a single species to determine the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That 0.002-0.2 is mg/L or ppm - therapeutic copper treatment for fish 2.5ppm for reference. It's worth noting here, though, that some creatures may actually do just as well or better with some levels of copper. For example, Whiteleg Shrimp (Litopenaeus vannamei) actually grew slightly (albeit, statistically insignificantly) better in aquaculture systems with 0.3 mg/L of copper in it than in the control (no copper) systems.*

*Source:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/271924483_Effect_of_copper_on_the_growth_of_shrimps_Litopenaeus_vannamei_Water_parameters_and_copper_budget_in_a_recirculating_system

If you want some in depth papers to look over on the toxicity of copper in water, I can share a few, but it's a murky topic for us hobbyists because of all the variables (particularly since there are a number of variables that the average hobbyist doesn't have the ability to measure, such as DOC), so I doubt they'd be particularly helpful for you here.

 

[TokenReefer]

Anectodal, but my chaeto started taking off by dosing (a small amount of) iron from the drugstore. Years worth in a bottle. Was it the iron? Idk but I do know io is low in it which led me down that road... Fwiw

 

[Azra]

My first instinct would be to say zero copper, but it really depends on what else you have, and I suppose there's always copper absorbers. Personally, Flourish Excel contains a minute amount of copper and I dosed it for years in a tank with no water changes. I even raised crabs from larvae in that tank, so your mileage may vary.

Macro nutrients are fairly simple, but I've had a hard time finding truly copper free micronutrients outside of the major brands unfortunately. On the other hand, most seawater mixes will have trace elements included, so whether or not you really need specialized micronutrients is debatable depending on your salt mix and water changes. Since you're just starting the tank, focus on keeping your basic macronutrients (NPK) availible and monitor your growth.

 

[Azra]

I'm using Aquaforest reef salt which states that's enriched with micro nutrients (don't know exact amounts-I don't have package near me right now) and I'm doing water change once a week.
I know that copper free fertilizer is hard to find, so it's basically look for one that has it least. Flourish is available here, so I guess that'll be then.
I was considering mixing dry ferts but I need something simple that I can ask my partner to do when I'm not at home.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

Both are available on eBay and several European online shops that’s ship throughout the EU.

 

[Diastro]

Is nilcoc g available to you? That's what I use. Specifically niloc g's pps pro dosing dry fertilizer pack. It has both macro and micro nutrients, perfect for macroalgae. They also sell only the micro nutrient mixture I believe, that's probably the equivalent to cheato grow while the macro nutrients are mostly equivalent to neonitro and neophos.

 

[Azra]

Both are available on eBay and several European online shops that’s ship throughout the EU.

You're right. Only thing is that price of shipping for my country exceeds price of product and that's where I get in cheapskate mood lol.

 

[Azra]

Is nilcoc g available to you? That's what I use. Specifically niloc g's pps pro dosing dry fertilizer pack. It has both macro and micro nutrients, perfect for macroalgae. They also sell only the micro nutrient mixture I believe, that's probably the equivalent to cheato grow while the macro nutrients are mostly equivalent to neonitro and neophos.

Unfortunately not available.

 

[GARRIGA]

F/2 is used for microalgae (green water). Wonder if that would be a source of nutrients and minerals for macro. Available on Amazon and eBay and since it’s a generic formula it’s made by several sources and should be available from labs suppliers world wide. Assuming it would work the same with macro.

 

[Subsea]

F/2 is used for microalgae (green water). Wonder if that would be a source of nutrients and minerals for macro. Available on Amazon and eBay and since it’s a generic formula it’s made by several sources and should be available from labs suppliers world wide. Assuming it would work the same with macro.

The major deference between micro algae and macro algae is the ratio of N. Phytoplankton N is 16:1 while most macro algae N is 30:1.

 

[GARRIGA]

The major deference between micro algae and macro algae is the ratio of N. Phytoplankton N is 16:1 while most macro algae N is 30:1.

But will F/2 work with macro?

 

[dmsc2fs]

You can probably get close to a similar product by dosing Tropic Marin A & K and adding Iron.

 

[Subsea]

But will F/2 work with macro?

If only F2 is used; system will be nitrogen limited. I use ammonia to deal with that.

 

[Muffin87]

Hi everyone!
Wanted to ask what would be good substitute for ChaetoGro in macroalgae tank?
I am located in Europe (Croatia) and can't get hold of Brightwells ChaetoGro nor Continuum Chaeto grow.

U can get that at Marine-aquatics.eu