Tang Aggression - Understanding and Combating

[4FordFamily]

Just ordered a 5" Achilles.... not quite sure why they're expert only. Should do great; its a 300 gallon tank, and barely any fish in there. A 4" sailfin and 3" blue tang. Tons of space.

I wasn't sure if that was a spot above its eye. It was on sale, so was listed for a while, and then a 50 gift card. Also 14 day guarantee.

They’re expert level because they’re very needy fish— they need 100% parasite-free environment requiring full quarantine and prophylactic treatment of everything wet going in and out, they need very high oxygen levels in the tank (they live in the surf area rich in oxygen in the wild), they are somewhat tough to get feeding (for a tang), they have very high metabolisms and must feed a lot to subsist long-term, and they’re very dirty fish as a result but yet require cleaner water than other tangs — generally.

The biggest reasons are the parasites, feeding, and space requirements.

 

[TheHarold]

They’re expert level because they’re very needy fish— they need 100% parasite-free environment requiring full quarantine and prophylactic treatment of everything wet going in and out, they need very high oxygen levels in the tank (they live in the surf area rich in oxygen in the wild), they are somewhat tough to get feeding (for a tang), they have very high metabolisms and must feed a lot to subsist long-term, and they’re very dirty fish as a result but yet require cleaner water than other tangs — generally.

The biggest reasons are the parasites, feeding, and space requirements.

Hmm... thanks. I’m not prepared to nor able to supply that sort of sterile environment. But I do have the space, with a barely-stocked 300. And it’s from divers den, so should be eating.

What do you think.... I can’t do the quarantine. But my tank is quite healthy and stable. Should I cancel? It wouldn’t ship till Monday, so I have time.

 

[4FordFamily]

Hmm... thanks. I’m not prepared to nor able to supply that sort of sterile environment. But I do have the space, with a barely-stocked 300. And it’s from divers den, so should be eating.

What do you think.... I can’t do the quarantine. But my tank is quite healthy and stable. Should I cancel? It wouldn’t ship till Monday, so I have time.

I would definitely cancel, I know you don’t want to hear that.

Here’s some directly relevant reading. I wrote an article on this very topic as well.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

 

[TheHarold]

I would definitely cancel, I know you don’t want to hear that.

Here’s some directly relevant reading. I wrote an article on this very topic as well.

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

Yeah, if you lost 90% w/o sterile tank... I definitely won’t be successful. I’ll call tomorrow and cancel it, thanks.

But..... no Sohal? :(

 

[4FordFamily]

Yeah, if you lost 90% w/o sterile tank... I definitely won’t be successful. I’ll call tomorrow and cancel it, thanks.

But..... no Sohal? :(

I think I probably lost more than 90% I think I was being pretty conservative. It was very bad.

You can try with Sohal, I’ve had a couple live in a parasite management tank but that was before velvet became very bit as common as ich. Not a risk I’d take, personally.

Sorry, friend.

 

[mjreefs]

Out of curiosity, has anyone lost a dominant fish (rehoming, death, etc.) that resulted in a struggle for power among the remaining fish? Example, you have a dominant 7" PBT rehomed and the 5" PT, HYT and Desjardini suddenly became hostile to each other.

Also, does the aggression hierarchy (I believe, this is what we call the "pecking order") in the tank affect growth rate? (i.e. those in the bottom of the hierarchy will remain relatively small and will not outgrow those in the upper echelons).

 

[4FordFamily]

Out of curiosity, has anyone lost a dominant fish (rehoming, death, etc.) that resulted in a struggle for power among the remaining fish? Example, you have a dominant 7" PBT rehomed and the 5" PT, HYT and Desjardini suddenly became hostile to each other.

Also, does the aggression hierarchy (I believe, this is what we call the "pecking order") in the tank affect growth rate? (i.e. those in the bottom of the hierarchy will remain relatively small and will not outgrow those in the upper echelons).

Yes, I have seen this many times although it generally leads to harmony rather quickly.

Yes this is likely, if not because of the hierarchy itself then because the boss gets first shot at food and often eats more in general, typically.

 

[skiwez]

Hi,

Looking to add a powder blue and purple tang. Tank is 200 gallon 6 foot wide. Current residents are a desarjini sailfish cbb, saddle back butterfly, 2 yellow head gobies, couple of clowns and few smaller fish.

The sailfin is definitely the king of the tank and is probably about 5 inches. Got him when he still had juvenile coloring.

I have a qt/observation tank which the PBT and PT will go into. But not sure how the sailfin will react. I've read they are the gentle giants, but seems as though he's definitely becoming the ruler of the tank.

Still have at least 4 weeks to make my decision as I have a carpenter's flasher currently in the qt.

 

[mjreefs]

Hi,

Looking to add a powder blue and purple tang. Tank is 200 gallon 6 foot wide. Current residents are a desarjini sailfish cbb, saddle back butterfly, 2 yellow head gobies, couple of clowns and few smaller fish.

The sailfin is definitely the king of the tank and is probably about 5 inches. Got him when he still had juvenile coloring.

I have a qt/observation tank which the PBT and PT will go into. But not sure how the sailfin will react. I've read they are the gentle giants, but seems as though he's definitely becoming the ruler of the tank.

Still have at least 4 weeks to make my decision as I have a carpenter's flasher currently in the qt.

I had a Pacific Sailfin Tang that was the boss and it was a gentle giant, not sure with the desjardini, but I've got a friend who had one and said it was mean. But I guess the PT would be able to hold its ground, considering it is more aggressive than both sailfin variants, not quite sure. @4FordFamily would certainly chime in on this one.

 

[4FordFamily]

Hi,

Looking to add a powder blue and purple tang. Tank is 200 gallon 6 foot wide. Current residents are a desarjini sailfish cbb, saddle back butterfly, 2 yellow head gobies, couple of clowns and few smaller fish.

The sailfin is definitely the king of the tank and is probably about 5 inches. Got him when he still had juvenile coloring.

I have a qt/observation tank which the PBT and PT will go into. But not sure how the sailfin will react. I've read they are the gentle giants, but seems as though he's definitely becoming the ruler of the tank.

Still have at least 4 weeks to make my decision as I have a carpenter's flasher currently in the qt.

I wouldn't add one zebrasoma to a current zebrasoma, particularly of good size and especially as the current sole tang. This is high risk factor. If you add one zebrasoma, I'd add at least one more, perhaps a yellow, black, scopas, etc. This may diffuse zebrasoma aggression. This would also improve your chances with the powder blue -- more tangs added concurrently is best for aggression -- just be sure that your tank has ample nutrient export capabilities as that's a lot of bio load added at once.

And yes, I think those fish could co-exist but for the huge risk factors of one lone tang that is accustomed to having no tang competition - adding just one zebrasoma to this environment is not likely to end well.

 

[skiwez]

Thanks appreciate the recommendations.

 

[TheHarold]

@4FordFamily so I did cancel the Achilles, and got a Sohal instead. Divers den. Was shipped in a TON of water- 17lbs for 1 fish.

It looks amazing- when I popped it in the tank, the tang immediately proceeded to pull my algae clip off the glass!!

The tang-dynamic in the tank has clearly changed. The sailfin is agitated— fins spread wide open. However, they have not gone after eachother, so I think it will go well. They eat peacefully from the same algae clip.

It’s a fast swimmer, can’t get a good photo.

So current 300g tang stocking:

3.5” blue tang
5” sailfin
5” sohol

(I also have a wrasse, pair of clowns, and blenny)

 

[mjreefs]

@4FordFamily so I did cancel the Achilles, and got a Sohal instead. Divers den. Was shipped in a TON of water- 17lbs for 1 fish.

It looks amazing- when I popped it in the tank, the tang immediately proceeded to pull my algae clip off the glass!!

The tang-dynamic in the tank has clearly changed. The sailfin is agitated— fins spread wide open. However, they have not gone after eachother, so I think it will go well. They eat peacefully from the same algae clip.

It’s a fast swimmer, can’t get a good photo.

So current 300g stocking:

3.5” blue tang
5” sailfin
5” sohol

That Sohal looks amazing! And given the size of the sailfin and the sohal, the sailfin would naturally be agitated, but they're not known to be very aggressive. Good luck with the new addition!

 

[4FordFamily]

@4FordFamily so I did cancel the Achilles, and got a Sohal instead. Divers den. Was shipped in a TON of water- 17lbs for 1 fish.

It looks amazing- when I popped it in the tank, the tang immediately proceeded to pull my algae clip off the glass!!

The tang-dynamic in the tank has clearly changed. The sailfin is agitated— fins spread wide open. However, they have not gone after eachother, so I think it will go well. They eat peacefully from the same algae clip.

It’s a fast swimmer, can’t get a good photo.

So current 300g stocking:

3.5” blue tang
5” sailfin
5” sohol

Nice fish! They can get pretty nasty, especially in a tank of few tangs. Mine beats on large angels 2 inches bigger and even my puffers 3 inches larger...

Most aren't quite that nasty but something to think about, adding fish from here out may be risky. I hope yours behaves :)

 

[TheHarold]

Nice fish! They can get pretty nasty, especially in a tank of few tangs. Mine beats on large angels 2 inches bigger and even my puffers 3 inches larger...

Most aren't quite that nasty but something to think about, adding fish from here out may be risky. I hope yours behaves :)

My last tang (for a total of 4 in a 300 gallon) will hopefully be a yellow tang. On your advice (I think), I was going to add that last due to being the most aggressive.

Do you think I should hurry and add that yellow before the sohol gets more established?

4 tangs in a 300 gallon is prettying reasonable, right?

 

[mjreefs]

Nice fish! They can get pretty nasty, especially in a tank of few tangs. Mine beats on large angels 2 inches bigger and even my puffers 3 inches larger...

Most aren't quite that nasty but something to think about, adding fish from here out may be risky. I hope yours behaves :)

That sounds like how a passer angel would behave (read stories from the other forum) :eek:

 

[4FordFamily]

My last tang (for a total of 4 in a 300 gallon) will hopefully be a yellow tang. On your advice, I was going to add that last due to being the most aggressive.

Do you think I should hurry and add that yellow before the sohol gets more established?

Adding a yellow to a sailfin may not end well, but zebrasoma don't fight long, they typically get over it relatively quickly. A sohal is definitely more aggressive than a yellow tang.

That sounds like how a passer angel would behave (read stories from the other forum) :eek:

My Passer angels have never lived up to their reputation, either. One point of contention though, mine were always kept with several other large angels. I suspect this changes their behavior. Mine was not tank boss, the Emperor was. That said, he didn't take any snot from anyone, including the emperor. If the emperor chased or bit him and he was in the mood to be ornery he'd chase him around the tank. This would make you think the Passer was boss, but he didn't pick at, nip at, or chase anyone unless they started the fight -- he'd just finish it. My emperor on the other hand asserted dominance frequently.

I've kept two Passers for more than a year each before the second succumbed to a power outage of vacation, both exhibited the same behavior. It's important to note that both were about 4.5" in length.

I have a new one going in to my 500 gallon, he is about 7 inches and again will be housed with many other angels. I suspect he too will be a model citizen, but like Sohal tangs-- I suspect they get nastier with age/size and depending on the number of large angels present. The conventional wisdom always was only one per tank. It probably still should be for the most part, but I find that their behavior is less abrasive in the company of other large, aggressive angels. Much like tangs.

 

[TheHarold]

Adding a yellow to a sailfin may not end well, but zebrasoma don't fight long, they typically get over it relatively quickly. A sohal is definitely more aggressive than a yellow tang.
.

Is there any tang I can add that would get along better? Or at this point, it’s kind of hit-or-miss?

Naso perhaps?

 

[mjreefs]

Adding a yellow to a sailfin may not end well, but zebrasoma don't fight long, they typically get over it relatively quickly. A sohal is definitely more aggressive than a yellow tang.



My Passer angels have never lived up to their reputation, either. One point of contention though, mine were always kept with several other large angels. I suspect this changes their behavior. Mine was not tank boss, the Emperor was. That said, he didn't take any snot from anyone, including the emperor. If the emperor chased or bit him and he was in the mood to be ornery he'd chase him around the tank. This would make you think the Passer was boss, but he didn't pick at, nip at, or chase anyone unless they started the fight -- he'd just finish it. My emperor on the other hand asserted dominance frequently.

I've kept two Passers for more than a year each before the second succumbed to a power outage of vacation, both exhibited the same behavior. It's important to note that both were about 4.5" in length.

I have a new one going in to my 500 gallon, he is about 7 inches and again will be housed with many other angels. I suspect he too will be a model citizen, but like Sohal tangs-- I suspect they get nastier with age/size and depending on the number of large angels present. The conventional wisdom always was only one per tank. It probably still should be for the most part, but I find that their behavior is less abrasive in the company of other large, aggressive angels. Much like tangs.

The other stories I've heard was about bullying other fish (like triggers). I'm planning to get one soon, but I have a more docile set of angels (annularis, scribbled pair). Hopefully there would be a juvenile that suddenly pops up (although, extremely rare), but that would probably be a year after when my scribbled pair gets to a good size.

 

[4FordFamily]

Is there any tang I can add that would get along better? Or at this point, it’s kind of hit-or-miss?

Naso perhaps?

It's going to be hit or miss. Naso might be a good choice, although mine beats on/harasses (no damage yet) my 7" Blonde Naso male with streamers. Not a good idea, as a naso has two scalpels on each side... mine will likely calm down when the tank becomes more crowded. I have a GIANT achilles tang (probably 9-10 inches) that will be going in if he makes it through quarantine, I have a feeling this Sohal won't be tank boss much longer...

The other stories I've heard was about bullying other fish (like triggers). I'm planning to get one soon, but I have a more docile set of angels (annularis, scribbled pair). Hopefully there would be a juvenile that suddenly pops up (although, extremely rare), but that would probably be a year after when my scribbled pair gets to a good size.

I've seen juveniles available on stocklists at some suppliers recently. I will say that a Passer angel is scared of nothing, so that doesn't surprise me. I've just not witnessed them "starting fights", just finishing them. Mine haven't gone looking for trouble or picking on anyone but have no problem defending themselves in the event trouble finds them.