Tang disease - spikes

[CivicS14]

Tang is recovering from velvet and has been in copper at 2.25 for 13 days and this just popped up yesterday. Any idea?

 

[CivicS14]

Here he is 13 days ago. Really surprised he lived.

 

[Tamberav]

Just have to say.. WOW! I would never have expected a fish that covered to survive.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Appears to be head erosion in which the symptoms are pitting on the head and deterioration of skin and scales along the lateral line. It is commonly seen when in copper treatment or in an environment with high Nitrates. While it is possible to reverse HLLE, it's a slow process and can take months. The best practice is to prevent it from happening with proper tank maintenance.
other causes are: Poor nutrition, internal parasites or stray voltage. Providing proper environment and nutrition for the type of fish you are trying to keep should not be ignored. Enhance the food provided with selcon vitamins, or garlic extract which in some cases it may shorten the recovery time.

Feed:
Nori seaweed basted with garlic
LRS Herbivore Diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
mysis shrimp
Spirulina brine shrimp

 

[CivicS14]

Appears to be head erosion in which the symptoms are pitting on the head and deterioration of skin and scales along the lateral line. It is commonly seen when in copper treatment or in an environment with high Nitrates. While it is possible to reverse HLLE, it's a slow process and can take months. The best practice is to prevent it from happening with proper tank maintenance.
other causes are: Poor nutrition, internal parasites or stray voltage. Providing proper environment and nutrition for the type of fish you are trying to keep should not be ignored. Enhance the food provided with selcon vitamins, or garlic extract which in some cases it may shorten the recovery time.

Feed:
Nori seaweed basted with garlic
LRS Herbivore Diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
mysis shrimp
Spirulina brine shrimp

The spikey looking things? Circled in red.

 

[drawman]

The spikey looking things? Circled in red.

Looks like your copper isn't working to me. How are you testing? I would think that if these were just bite marks they would have subsided some time ago.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Appears to be flukes.

@Jay Hemdal - your thoughts?

 

[CivicS14]

Appears to be flukes.

@Jay Hemdal - your thoughts?

It’s raised off his skin like little spikes.

 

[CivicS14]

Looks like your copper isn't working to me. How are you testing? I would think that if these were just bite marks they would have subsided some time ago.

They aren’t bite marks, they are raised like little spikes. The other white dots in the pic isn’t on him, just particles in the water.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I just looked at this on larger screen. What it may be as ive seen in the past is mucus being extruded from the pores in the fish’s skin. A freshwater dip may or may not help with this

 

[CivicS14]

I just looked at this on larger screen. What it may be as ive seen in the past is mucus being extruded from the pores in the fish’s skin. A freshwater dip may or may not help with this

I’ll try that tomorrow. Thanks for the input. I couldn’t find any pics to match this to compare it to.

 

[CivicS14]

I just looked at this on larger screen. What it may be as ive seen in the past is mucus being extruded from the pores in the fish’s skin. A freshwater dip may or may not help with this

I found another thread showing it exactly. Mucus plug/cone. Thanks a ton! It looks like some tangs get it in a reaction to copper.
I’ll do a fw dip and move him to a qt tank. Feed some healthy meals soaked in selcon.

 

[hds4216]

Appears to be head erosion in which the symptoms are pitting on the head and deterioration of skin and scales along the lateral line. It is commonly seen when in copper treatment or in an environment with high Nitrates. While it is possible to reverse HLLE, it's a slow process and can take months. The best practice is to prevent it from happening with proper tank maintenance.
other causes are: Poor nutrition, internal parasites or stray voltage. Providing proper environment and nutrition for the type of fish you are trying to keep should not be ignored. Enhance the food provided with selcon vitamins, or garlic extract which in some cases it may shorten the recovery time.

Feed:
Nori seaweed basted with garlic
LRS Herbivore Diet
Formula 2 flake and frozen
mysis shrimp
Spirulina brine shrimp

According to Jay, there's no connection between HLLE and voltage.

 

[vetteguy53081]

According to Jay, there's no connection between HLLE and voltage.

With erosion, it’s one possibility. I listed possibilities, not the actual cause

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've seen similar spikes/cones on tangs seemingly following copper treatments (and other stressors as well). I'm not sure what the cause is. It sometimes goes away on its own. I talk a bit about it in this article:

Mucus - The Slime That Binds

Mucus: The Slime that Binds Jay Hemdal C. 2020 This article examines the various causes of excess mucus coatings on fish, as well as fecal mucus issues. ------------------- The mucus produced by the fish’s epidermal cells gives them their...

www.reef2reef.com

The key here is to figure out what the spots are. What I do (and you may not be able to) is capture the fish up and gently scrape some of the spots onto a slide and look at them under a microscope - then I can see if it is mucus versus flukes versus protozoans.

Jay

 

[CivicS14]

I've seen similar spikes/cones on tangs seemingly following copper treatments (and other stressors as well). I'm not sure what the cause is. It sometimes goes away on its own. I talk a bit about it in this article:

Mucus - The Slime That Binds

Mucus: The Slime that Binds Jay Hemdal C. 2020 This article examines the various causes of excess mucus coatings on fish, as well as fecal mucus issues. ------------------- The mucus produced by the fish’s epidermal cells gives them their...

www.reef2reef.com

The key here is to figure out what the spots are. What I do (and you may not be able to) is capture the fish up and gently scrape some of the spots onto a slide and look at them under a microscope - then I can see if it is mucus versus flukes versus protozoans.

Jay

I've never scraped a fish before, what do you use? A knife? And its on the underside of his belly mainly and some on the body but mainly on the belly area.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I've never scraped a fish before, what do you use? A knife? And its on the underside of his belly mainly and some on the body but mainly on the belly area.

It takes a gentle hand to do this, not sure I can describe how in a note like this. I use a tiny scalpel and just hold the fish and try to remove one or two of the spots. Looking at that under a microscope then tells you if it is just mucus, a protozoan or a fluke.
Jay

 

[drawman]

It takes a gentle hand to do this, not sure I can describe how in a note like this. I use a tiny scalpel and just hold the fish and try to remove one or two of the spots. Looking at that under a microscope then tells you if it is just mucus, a protozoan or a fluke.
Jay

Alternatively if you didn't feel up to it or don't have a scope you could do a FW dip to rule out flukes. I sure would've guessed Ich on this one but I'll defer to your experience.

 

[CivicS14]

Alternatively if you didn't feel up to it or don't have a scope you could do a FW dip to rule out flukes. I sure would've guessed Ich on this one but I'll respect your experience.

This is not ich and its hard to capture in a pic cause the fish is always moving. It protrudes out like spikes/cones. I’ll simply do a freshwater dip to be sure its not flukes but I’ve seen flukes before and it doesn’t look anywhere like this. I’m too worried I would injure the fish trying to scalp one off.

 

[drawman]

This is not ich and its hard to capture in a pic cause the fish is always moving. It protrudes out like spikes/cones. I’ll simply do a freshwater dip to be sure its not flukes but I’ve seen flukes before and it doesn’t look anywhere like this. I’m too worried I would injure the fish trying to scalp one off.

Yeah I tend to agree it doesn't look like flukes. It would rule it out for you but you could also continue to monitor.

Also nice work bringing the fish back from such a dire state.