Tang woes...among other problems

lolmatt

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tl;dr - two zebrasoma tangs breathing very heavy and not eating much if at all, wrasses flashing here-and-there 2 months after TTM, and a bacteria bloom that won't go away. Long post, trying to give as much info as possible here.

I just recently setup a brand new 180 gallon tank (dry billy rock, special grade sand, cycled with turbostart 900 and bottled ammonium chloride which fully cycled the tank in under a week), was all very exciting and nearly ready for fish when I noticed crypto (ich) in the 125g that was holding on to all my fish and coral. I did a very cautious TTM for two sets of fish (round 1 was 2 clowns 3 tangs and a long nose hawk, round 2 was 5 halichoeres and 2 macropharyngodon wrasses, TTM procedure essentially followed @Humblefish's guide to the T), after which the fish were added to the 180g (so, the tangs+clowns+hawk, then the wrasses 2 weeks later) and came out ecstatic - ich was gone, no signs of disease, fish were doing great. All of these fish had been with me for at least 2 months in the 125 (which I used as a pseudo observation/qt tank prepping for the 180) and showed no other signs of disease that I know of.

The second batch of fish completed the TTM around the first week of December. Some time in December, the tank developed a bacteria bloom. I thought I'd ride it out for a few days or a week (wet skimmed a bit, ran carbon, etc), and the tank was going through all sorts of new tank ugliness (diatoms, green algae, etc), but as of today the (what I assume is a) bacteria bloom is as cloudy as it was ~2 months ago.

I took a vacation a few weeks ago, leading up to which all fish seemed to be doing fine. After coming back (had a family member I trust feed mysis daily while I was gone), I noticed my yellow tang out less than normal and soon after noticed beginning of HLLE (pitting on the head/face) on my desjardini tang. I also noticed both fish breathing rapidly, refusing food for the most part (the desjardini will pick at LRS and nori, the yellow I'm not sure I've seen eat in at least a week), mostly hiding, and breathing heavy. I also saw some of my wrasses flashing, and I'd been meaning to treat with prazipro, so I started that immediately (say, first dose 1/25, second dose 1/30) and took off the skimmer cup.

In the ~week since, I've noticed reduced flashing in the wrasses (though it has not subsided), perhaps slight uptick in appetite in the desjardini tang (she will try to go after food and will still pick at the nori, which is now selcon-soaked nori to help rehab from HLLE assuming she lives), but overall little change. I have a blue hippo tang that looks as healthy as ever, eats great, and cruises around picking at stuff all day. The two zebrasoma tangs are still breathing very heavy (est 200+ breaths per minute), have their mouths open most of the time (such that the desjardini almost inhales food rather than biting it), and I'm just at a loss for what to focus on right now.

I don't really have a great way to move these fish to any sort of hospital tank, if I could even catch them which is pretty much out of the question. The tank has corals and most are doing well. I've tested ammonia/nitrite/nitrate very consistently and none are detectable on both API and red sea kits (chaeto growing well). I have been doing 30g water changes (system is 200g so that's 15%) every other week, and I'm planning 60g for Saturday. So, in order of preference I'd like to address the tangs since they seem most dire, address the flashing in other fish (no new fish added since TTM, I think velvet would have killed a fish by now and no signs of brook that I know of), and then take ideas for how to nuke this bacterial bloom.

Help!
 

ndrwater

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Did the fish show signs of ich innthe display? How long were the fish out of the display?
Ich has a multi stage lifecycle.. if Ich was present innthe display, even if the fish were removed, the tank needed to go fallow (zero fish) for 76+ days to be sure the tank was ich free.
Reintroducing the fish, even after TTM prior to the fallow period allows for a host for the parasite and the whole cycle starts all over again...
 
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lolmatt

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Hey @ndrwater thanks for the quick reply. The 125 gallon that the fish were in did not have any fish added back to it - the fish went from 125 (ich) -> TTM (12 days) -> brand new 180g. That tank was fallow until 1/20, at which point I began moving some corals out of the 125 and into the 180. Note that I noticed all the symptoms before adding any of these corals to the 180, and nothing else was added prior to this (it was fish-only until a couple weeks ago).
 

ndrwater

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TTM although effective, not always 100%. Things like nets, decorations, etc can all harbor the Ich parasite.
I also believe @Humblefish did an article recently about how going fallow is also not 100%.
Sounds like you have a bit of a conumdrum.
Personally, if the fish are still eating, I cross my fingers and hope form the best. Reducing stressors by having lots of hiding spots, average to short photo period, not adding new fish until things settle, feeding the most nutritious foods you can get your hands on all help but are still not a 100% guarantee. There are several products that advertise "reef safe ich cure" but I take those claims with a grain of salt..
Maybe Humble will chime in (I tagged him) with some more info. Until then, fingers crossed...
 

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I'm a bit confused on your exact method if you say you do not have a hospital tank. Are the fish in the display and is there an empty tank for them to transfer to?
If you do not have a way to remove the fish, you should make every attempt to get the fish to eat. IME, an eating sick fish can pull through. I recommend things fish cannot resist which is live food. Blood worms, brine shrimp, etc. Tangs however need seaweed too. Hang a clip of nori in there every day until they start eating it. I have bought garlic capsules and squeezed them on the sheets of nori before as an appetite stimulant. I can't say if it works any better. Good luck! I have 7 tangs in my display. I understand!
 
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lolmatt

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Nets were not used (an easy to rinse backet), all decorations (pvc) were washed and allowed to dry for 72 hours, and the fish started showing symptoms before anything from the fallow tank was added back in to the 180. I really think this isn't ich - the fish showed external signs (white specs) when they had ich, and it's been almost 2 months (longer for the tangs) since anyone has had ich marks.

Is it possible the poor water quality could be causing something to flare up? Perhaps ich+fluke gill damage that led to bacterial infection, perpetuated by the bacterial bloom?
 
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lolmatt

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The fish are all in a new (2-3mo old) 180g tank with just a couple corals, which they went into immediately after the TTM. I've been soaking nori in selcon and the desjardini is eating that pretty well. The rest of the fish (7 wrasses, a blue tang, pair of clowns, long nose hawk) are all eating LRS/mysis/live black worms in the evening, and seaweed extreme pellets in a feeder daily at 2:00.

Edit - I think the desjardini will pull through if she keeps improving, and I'll soak her food in selcon a couple times a week for the next few months to help with the (hopefully acute) HLLE. I'm foremost worried about the yellow tang since he hasn't shown real signs of improvement and is still not eating after about 2 weeks.
 

Humblefish

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One question and one observation:
  1. Were these fish ever dewormed with Prazipro or General Cure? Flukes could be to blame for the symptoms you described.
  2. TTM is a great method for eradicating ich. However, it does nothing for velvet, brook and uronema.
 

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Do you think it's aggression related given those two fish are the same shape?
 
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lolmatt

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One question and one observation:
  1. Were these fish ever dewormed with Prazipro or General Cure? Flukes could be to blame for the symptoms you described.
  2. TTM is a great method for eradicating ich. However, it does nothing for velvet, brook and uronema.
1. I just treated with prazipro in the DT last week (two doses, 5 days apart). The second dose was given 1/30. I actually just dosed a third dose this evening in case that's still happening (and I've heard rumors of prazipro becoming less effective against flukes of late). 50ml in a 200g total volume sytem.

2. Would any of those 3 diseases show no symptoms after nearly 2 months? I am nearly 100% sure I had crypto when I did the TTM, though it's certainly possible I had one or more other diseases.
 
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lolmatt

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Do you think it's aggression related given those two fish are the same shape?
That's an interesting thought. The yellow was definitely the more aggressive (and larger and longer resident) of the two, and has since become basically a coward, and the desjardini has been slowly improving (or it's my hopeful imagination...), but I will keep a close eye for any sign of aggression.
 

Humblefish

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2. Would any of those 3 diseases show no symptoms after nearly 2 months? I am nearly 100% sure I had crypto when I did the TTM, though it's certainly possible I had one or more other diseases.

How many fish total are in the 180? Sometimes symptoms can take awhile to manifest in large aquariums if the feeding ground (i.e. your fish population) is light.
 
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lolmatt

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17 fish in total - in the main display there are 3 tangs (z. flavescens, z. desjardini, p. hepatus), 2 clowns (a. ocellaris), long nose hawk (o. typus), and 8 sand-sleeping wrasses (h. iridis, h. melanurus, h. biocellatus, h. timorensis, h. chrysus, m. ornatus, m. moyeri) and then in a 40g frag tank attached I have c. springeri damsel, green wrasse h. chloropterus, and lawnmower blenny s. fasciatus. To clear up any confusion h. chrysus and the 3 frag tank fish were in another established tank for a year (I merged a 40 and a 125 into the 180, fish from the 40 came in first, then tangs+clowns+hawk post-ttm, then the 7 other wrasses post-ttm 2 weeks later). Definitely not under stocked lol, might need to remove a wrasse or two in a year.
 
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lolmatt

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How many fish total are in the 180? Sometimes symptoms can take awhile to manifest in large aquariums if the feeding ground (i.e. your fish population) is light.

The yellow tang and h. melanurus had been with me in the 40 as well since ~January 2017, moved her to the 125 ~August as she grew along with some other fish I acquired Q3/Q4 last year. The tang was very healthy, other than occasionally showing signs of lympho on the edges of a few fins for a couple days maybe 6 months ago, and continued to be healthy until I noticed her out less than usual 2-3 weeks ago. Was a very aggressive eater, occasionally nipped the desjardini in the 125 (less and less as they worked things out, and then only a couple times since moving into the 180, never enough to prevent desjardini from eating).
 

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I'm no fish doctor but I'm going to go out on a limb here... I'm wondering if there was some item, coral, rock, whatever that contaminated your display and the tangs are becoming susceptible to infection because tangs are always squabbling over spaces and such. I feel for you. That's a lot of work.
 
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lolmatt

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The blue has always ignored the yellow and desjardini and vice versa. These are pretty small tangs too, <6" on the yellow and ~4" for the desjardini still showing juvenile colors. They have not been aggressive to each other since showing symptoms, commonly sharing the same nook behind the rock they've chosen to hide behind while breathing like they each just ran multi-hour marathons.

What sort of contamination are you thinking? If one of the 13 fish that went through TTM or 4 that were living in a healthy tank for a year somehow kept velvet in its system without showing symptoms (the ich symptoms in the 125 came after adding nothing for about 3-4 weeks, and was left untreated for a week after that while I prepped for TTM, no casualties), I feel like it would have killed something by now. Those 13 fish that went through TTM were all in the 125 together, went through TTM in two batches 2 weeks apart, and both batches complete around 1st week of December. I realize TTM can provide some relief for velvet, but say 12/7 (est. last day of TTM for 2nd batch of fish - day they moved into the 180) -> 1/20 (when I noticed flashing in wrasses and tang hiding) _seems_ like an excessive period for velvet to chill out dormant in a fish's system, plus 1/20 -> 2/8 19 days to have only the tangs showing severe symptoms and only partial symptoms at that (heavy breathing, hiding, loss of appetite - no swimming into powerheads nor spots nor "dirty" skin).

It's all just very confusing and super disheartening for me. I had this all planned out, ich came and dropped my spirits pretty low but I thought I had that pretty well defeated. To have this pop up 2 months later, literally 2 days after my 11-week fallow period so I could start moving corals over, is just a kick in the behind.

Edit - cursing...
 
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lolmatt

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I guess my math was a little off...last day of TTM round 2 and the day the wrasses were put in the 180g (nothing added since this date) was 11/17. So over 2 months without any symptoms.

I've even checked for crazy stuff like stray voltage - I can measure 23vAC in the display from multiple 2-3v sources...2 return pumps, 2 gyres, 2 heaters, a skimmer, etc. but from what I've read 20-30v is acceptable, no grounding probe (I'm of the school of thought that grounding probes give the current somewhere to flow, making it more dangerous).

I'm hoping that improving water quality may get the tangs eating better, I may end up doing 90g instead of 60 which would be nearly a 50% change. Water quality is definitely not where I want it to be (in addition to the bloom, the water has a slight yellow/brown tint visible in a white 5g bucket). But I'm at a loss and feeling super defeated about the whole thing right now - have considered taking down the whole system. If fish suddenly show major symptoms and stop eating after being healthy for 2 months, how can I expect to keep them healthy long-term?
 
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Humblefish

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Humblefish

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P.S. How long has the bacterial bloom been a problem? The Oxybispropanol found in Prazipro is undoubtedly fueling it.
 
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lolmatt

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Far before the prazi was dosed. Easily since mid December. Keep thinking it was getting better then it'd get worse. Nothing odd in the house fueling it like chemicals or candles. I've been thinking about a de filter or uv to clear it up, just posted on my local forum to see if anyone will sell me one locally.
 

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