Tank birthday, 47+ years

[Dogtown]

It would take more than that. If you really want to help others and you want to make extreme claims like you are doing, then you should practice what you preach permanently and live with the consequences. Either formally include sterilization as part of your regimen and give it credence, or formally and permanently exclude sterilization from your regimen. There is no going back and no half commitment.

The clock starts after commitment is made and a confirmed, diseased fish is introduced. I will provide a diseased fish from an LFS that is nearby.

 

[Dogtown]

Just one of those things you thought might have helped back in the day and just never thought otherwise?
-Zack, who is unfamiliar with Ozone

Ozone sterilization provides a very big advantage. Here is an example. Ignore the advertisement at the end.

 

[olecaptainj]

No offense dogtown but perhaps you could start your own thread or take whatever point your trying to debate to pm’s with Paul.

Your posts here in this thread are confusing and a bit of a buzz kill...

 

[Brew12]

No offense dogtown but perhaps you could start your own thread or take whatever point your trying to debate to pm’s with Paul.

Your posts here in this thread are confusing and a bit of a buzz kill...

I understand the point he is trying to make, and there is some validity to it imo. I don't agree that the end result will be what he expects which I feel Paul will prove.

The question is basically what role ozone plays in Paul's system. I was a doubter when I first read Paul's threads and started doing research. The scientific studies I found made me a believer. What they show is that a fishes immune system, if properly maintained, is more than enough to protect them from common parasites like Ich and Velvet. That doesn't mean what @Dogtown is suggesting isn't valid or that ozone doesn't play a role. It does. Ozone will help limit parasite number during a stress event that can weaken the fishes immune system. It can also aid in reducing parasite populations while a previously naïve fish develops its immunity. It serves little purpose for fish who are immune in a healthy, stress free environment.

Just because I am a believer doesn't mean I recommend not using QT. Only that I don't believe his system is luck. It is scientifically valid and may be the best way to maintain an aquarium. It also isn't for everyone which he routinely makes clear. It is also fine to challenge his system. These challenges are healthy if done respectfully to help further our knowledge.

 

[Dogtown]

No offense dogtown but perhaps you could start your own thread or take whatever point your trying to debate to pm’s with Paul.

Your posts here in this thread are confusing and a bit of a buzz kill...

No offense taken. I PMed Paul and he encouraged me to discuss this openly on his thread. It was his invite.

Given that there are readers who follow Pauls methods so diligently, it makes sense that the sterilization technique he uses is understood by all.

 

[Paul B]

Why on earth would I want to change my practices that have worked flawlessly for almost half a century? Almost everyone has problems, but I don't. I would have to be nuts to change and to change just for a test is more nuts.
The only reason I have any SPS corals in my tank is because someone on RC argued with me that they would never live in my tank because it was to dirty. So I bought a few and they grew all over the place. And I don't even like SPS. Then someone told me I could not keep a Hippo Tang because of parasites. I bought one and after 10 years I gave him away with no parasites. Someone asked me to add those stupid bio pellets to my tank for nitrates. I did and almost crashed my tank.

I can make extreme claims because my tank is the oldest on here with no problems and all my paired fish are spawning which I posted pictures of. You should ask someone who has a tank with problems to do things you suggest.

This is like telling Henry Ford that he should not use an assembly line, instead go back to building cars in garages and see if that works out better.

It would take more than that. If you really want to help others and you want to make extreme claims like you are doing,

If anyone believes that my ozonizer is keeping my tank parasite free, then they should run out and buy an ozonizer. Plenty of tanks use one but I don't think all those tanks are immune.

Given that there are readers who follow Pauls methods so diligently, it makes sense that the sterilization technique he uses is understood by all.

I do not sterilize anything. I add mud all the time from a muddy bay.

I don't have to prove anything, why would I? The people with sick fish need to up their game and learn about immunity. Or Ozone if they feel that is the way to go. But it is not up to me. I post what I do and also post my results.

 

[Paul B]

No offense taken. I PMed Paul and he encouraged me to discuss this openly on his thread. It was his invite.

This is true. I did invite him here and I also suggested he should start his own thread about Ozone.
Is everyone's tank who uses Ozone immune or did any of them crash from parasites?

I am pretty sure that after 46 years that this hobby has been in the US we would have known by now if Ozone is the key, why doesn't everyone just do that? :D

Chris are your fish immune from everything? I know you use ozone. I also know that you quarantine. Why do you do that when you are "sterilizing" water with Ozone?

 

[Rybren]

I like supermodels. Whether they use ozone is irrelevant to me. :p

 

[Dogtown]

@Brew12, you summed it up well. A fishes immune system, if properly maintained, is more than enough to protect them from the common parasites like Ich and velvet. And, as you said, Ozone will help limit parasite number during a stress event that can weaken a fishes immune system.

Paul said he welcomed an open discussion. He welcomed it either on this thread or a new one. I specifically tried to keep this a private discussion but Paul encouraged it as open. I want it to stay respectful and educational. If this is to be an open discussion, it should be here. There are many newbie aquarists that follow Paul and all of his recommended methods (even if he says not to).

I contest that Paul's long term success is due, in part, to his long term use of a low dose, ozone sterilizer. The sterilizer is providing fish with a healthier environment. A healthier environment allows fishes immune systems to stay in peak condition.

• Ozone sterilization destroys most, but not all, of the waterborne pathogens and virus' that can weaken fishes immune systems. As a result, Paul's fish are not as exposed to the higher levels of stress that these pathogens and virus's would otherwise impose on his fish.
• Ozone sterilization breaks down Ammonia to Nitrite extremely fast. As a result, Paul's fish are not exposed to low, but unhealthy, levels of ammonia. All things equal, Paul's followers have fish that are exposed to more Ammonia than his.
• Ozone sterilization breaks down Nitrite into Nitrate quickly. High levels of Nitrite are also unhealthy for fish. Paul's fish are not being exposed to high levels of Nitrite.
• Ozone does nothing to reduce Nitrate. Fortunately, fish can withstand high levels of nitrate with minimal impact. I have seen where Paul stated that he is surprised that his ozone sterilizer does nothing for his nitrate levels. That is expected.

It's been said that if you want to assert a truth, first make sure that its not just an opinion that you desperately want to be true. This applies to all, myself included.

 

[Erick Armanii]

Following along..

 

[Paul B]

I did invite Dogtown here and I appreciate this conversation as anyone is welcome to post on my thread.
I just disagree with the premise that Ozone does anything to parasites except maybe kill the few that go through it. As I said numerous times, I don't want to kill parasites.

But as I also said, if ozone makes it "seem" that your fish are immune, maybe everyone should use Ozone.

How many people here use ozone and also had parasites on their fish?

 

[Dogtown]

I did invite Dogtown here and I appreciate this conversation as anyone is welcome to post on my thread.
I just disagree with the premise that Ozone does anything to parasites except maybe kill the few that go through it. As I said numerous times, I don't want to kill parasites.

But as I also said, if ozone makes it "seem" that your fish are immune, maybe everyone should use Ozone.

How many people here use ozone and also had parasites on their fish?

The suggestion that low dose sterilizers kill all parasites has never even been suggested.

The ask is to acknowledge and support the fact that your long term success is due, in part, to your long term use of a low dose, ozone sterilizer. Your sterilizer has been providing your fish with a healthier environment for a long time. A healthier environment allows your fishes immune systems to stay in peak condition. It is “part” of the overall solution that you use. It isn’t inconsequential as you have been suggesting. Do you acknowledge that now?

 

[Erick Armanii]

I have a plan but unfortunately not a very good plan, but a plan none the less. :rolleyes:

I plan to build a stand and buy a new 125 gallon tank with a UG filter and set it up in the new house. ( they won't let me in until I close) Then come back here 60 miles, with a lot of tubs and buckets and bring everything to the new house. Leave the fish in the tubs with a heater while I go a mile to the beach and rinse out my gravel in the ocean. Then drive back and throw it in the new tank with NSW that I will get at the same time. Heat it up, throw in more gravel and dump in any fish and corals that are still alive. :confused:

Of course if I have to get out of here and my new place isn't finished, I will see how long fish and corals can live in a cardboard box down by the river.

If that happens, they will probably get a combination of ich, velvet and mono nucliosis and people will be telling me to fresh water dip them while I am adding prizapro, coppersafe, hydrogen peroxide and stump remover while I raise the temperature to just below boiling and get out the chicken bones.

So Bobby, I need you here. :eek:

Sorry for being so late to the game on this thread @Paul B great work and valuable experience!

I recently had to move my tank from one room to the other end of the house! (Basement flooded and it was tear down the tank for a few weeks or figure out a way to move it)

I removed as much water as I could.. with a buddy I jacked one end of the tank/stand and slide 4 peices of 1/2” round black pipe! After doing that I was able to roll the tank, sump and stand from one end of the house to the other!

All the fish, rock, coral, etc etc etc stayed in the tank!

Your situation is a little diffrent..
maybe if you get a few of those space rocket ships together they could provide enough thrust to lift and transport everything tank and all! Then again, I’m on the other side of the Long Island so send one to pick me up and I’ll help move that fossil!

Cheers!

 

[atoll]

Ozone sterilization provides a very big advantage. Here is an example. Ignore the advertisement at the end.

I get a very similar/same result using my Oxydators, no doubt people also get a similar water clarity running carbon.

 

[atoll]

@Brew12,

I contest that Paul's long term success is due, in part, to his long term use of a low dose, ozone sterilizer. The sterilizer is providing fish with a healthier environment. A healthier environment allows fishes immune systems to stay in peak condition.

I don't use ozone, I used to many years ago but not now. 27 years disease free, about 10 tanks in that time, never quarantined a fish and I have healthy fish that spawn like Paul. However I do use Oxydators as many know and I do believe they are a good help but hardly the main reason why my fish are healthy. In fact, I often allow my Oxydators to run out of peroxide like now before refilling, Although there are similarities between ozonizers and Oxydators, Oxydators do not attack parasites and you will find no reference to such only claims are to aid water quality. The use of my Oxydators are just one aid to my success. I don't add mud as I am too far from the sea which is temperate in summer and dang cold in winter.

You know it is hard for a simple hobbyist to prove scientific facts, we do what we do and if we consider it is working we continue with it. However, 47 years 27 years doing more or less the same thing with a little tweaking here and there can't be ignored and I am sure many agree as we have read on this thread and many more. I believe my success comes from a package of things I do, from the environment I have created to water quality, filtration, choice of fish (and I don't mean not buying fish that are susceptible to the likes of itch etc as I do have some) foods and feeding all helping to create a stress free environment for my fish and lack of stress plays an important part in a healthy tank as we know.
I do get the odd skirmish now and again esp between the Allens damsels I have but never any harm not even a nipped fin. You only have to see the videos of my tank to see how chilled out my fish are, damsels apart but then that's nature and just doing what they do in nature.
BTW the Regal angel is thinking food as I am near the tank and it's always at the front when I am near waiting for me to drop some food in.

 

[Chasmodes]

I love your tank atoll, very nice.

 

[atoll]

I love your tank atoll, very nice.

Thank you, I appreciate it. Although it has only been set up 22 months I guess you could call it an evolution (not sure if that's the right word but I am sure you get what I mean) of various tanks over many years which never really stops.

 

[Zack K]

Ozone sterilization provides a very big advantage. Here is an example. Ignore the advertisement at the end.

First off thank you all for the discussion. Learning a lot about Ozone just here. Seems to be a highly sided topic though. As I read thru this thread I had to come back to this post. I see the difference in clarity in the 2 pails, but how much of that actually happens in the tank, with a constant supply of detritus and in Paul’s case, mud.
-Zack

 

[Paul B]

Atoll also doesn't quarantine and uses no ozone. What is his excuse? :rolleyes:

I don't use ozone, I used to many years ago but not now. 27 years disease free, about 10 tanks in that time, never quarantined a fish and I have healthy fish that spawn like Paul.

The ask is to acknowledge and support the fact that your long term success is due, in part, to your long term use of a low dose, ozone sterilizer. Your sterilizer has been providing your fish with a healthier environment for a long time. A healthier environment allows your fishes immune systems to stay in peak condition. It is “part” of the overall solution that you use. It isn’t inconsequential as you have been suggesting. Do you acknowledge that now?

As I said, I am sure the ozonizer kills some parasites even though that is not why I use it. I also believe that my excellent food with living bacteria, my Reverse UG filter, my algae scrubber and the age of my tank all help. I can't, and no one else can, explain the entire thing because we are not fish or parasites. I can only go by my experiences and some things I read. But virtually everything you will read about immunity in fish is a lot newer than my tank. Researchers have been researching this for quite a few years and some of the researchers in the 60s and 70s I disagree with. I disagreed with them then and I do now.
The fact that I use Ozone is not proof that it keeps my fish immune. But the fact that there are no old quarantined tanks that are very healthy kind of alludes to the fact that that may not be the way to go. Also how many people on here besides Dogtown who uses Ozone has immune fish? If mine are immune, where are all the other Ozoned tanks that are immune?

Then again I don't have to prove anything. The people who want to refute my findings have something to prove. My fish are immune, even the 26 year olds and they all spawn. As I mentioned 3 or 4 times, show me an old quarantined tank with spawning fish that only die of old age and have never been sick. Just one. :cool:

 

[atoll]

Atoll also doesn't quarantine and uses no ozone. What is his excuse? :rolleyes:

Ermmmm, ermmm ;Bookworm You got me there Paul. However, (there is always a however and it's one of the best words I know;)) like I have mentioned many times, (I know you are all sick of me saying it), I use Oxydators which have many of the benefits of ozone but doubt it attacks parasites apart from maybe the old gits who sit in the house of lords asleep claiming £300 for popping in and using the subsidised food and bar :mad: Nothing seems to get rid of them however apart from hitting them on the back of the head with one of my Oxydators that might work ;Smuggrin. Anyway, I digress (can't beat a bit of digressing and blind alley wondering at 68 :eek:) could it possibly be the food I use, how much I feed and how often, the choice of compatible fish, my water quality, the fact I have never quarantined at fish in my life or the fact I am an exceedingly lucky marine aquarists Hmmmm I shall have to ponder your question some more Paul ;)
In the meantime and talking about foods and feeding, here is a short interlude.