Tank cycling and animal stress - what stores push vs whats right

[sde1500]

Yeah let me know when your fish begin talking to you. Until then, you are merely arguing the point of ammonia levels that are lower than you can even detect with most test kits.


We could split hairs on many issues in this Hobby. It is not a matter of who goes into the most detail and pains that is always right. However, as with any hobby, those that go to the most effort and split the most hairs will often criticize others that do not.

It’s not even splitting hairs or going into tons of detail to prove anyone right. Ammonia isn’t good for a fish. You could choose to do excessive water changes while cycling with a fish. Though that seems counterintuitive to letting a cycle happen. Or you could use one of the many methods that are proven to work without the possible negative side effects to a fish. Since there are simple alternatives it really makes no sense to use a fish. Now if you could put in some of that effort providing details you seem to have such disdain for, about why using a fish is a better way, I’m sure most would be all ears.

 

[Engloid]

It’s not even splitting hairs or going into tons of detail to prove anyone right. Ammonia isn’t good for a fish. You could choose to do excessive water changes while cycling with a fish. Though that seems counterintuitive to letting a cycle happen. Or you could use one of the many methods that are proven to work without the possible negative side effects to a fish. Since there are simple alternatives it really makes no sense to use a fish. Now if you could put in some of that effort providing details you seem to have such disdain for, about why using a fish is a better way, I’m sure most would be all ears.

My first suggestion would be to read my posts again. I didn't say using fish was a better way, as you're implying.

Further, you suggest that cycling with fish isn't proven to work? that's funny. You also suggest that there is harm done by cycling with fish.... when I CLEARLY stated ammonia levels undetectable by most test kits. If that's possible, how sure are you that your tank is not currently at an undetectable level of ammonia and your fish are being harmed.

Lets say you cycle your tank in YOUR method, and have a proportional level of ammonia production and consumption. What happens when you add another fish? Yeah...ammonia levels go up, whether you're able to detect it or not. Then bacteria levels increase as they consume it. Do you feel every time you add a new fish, you're harming your fish?

Keeping fish isn't rocket science, but some people just seem to enjoy making it as much work as possible. I don't.

 

[sde1500]

It’s not even splitting hairs or going into tons of detail to prove anyone right. Ammonia isn’t good for a fish. You could choose to do excessive water changes while cycling with a fish. Though that seems counterintuitive to letting a cycle happen. Or you could use one of the many methods that are proven to work without the possible negative side effects to a fish. Since there are simple alternatives it really makes no sense to use a fish. Now if you could put in some of that effort providing details you seem to have such disdain for, about why using a fish is a better way, I’m sure most would be all ears.

My first suggestion would be to read my posts again. I didn't say using fish was a better way, as you're implying.

I'm well aware you didn't, you offered it as an alternative. But there are other proven methods that don't need a fish, so why use one?

Further, you suggest that cycling with fish isn't proven to work? that's funny.

Seems maybe you should re-read my post, as that was never said.

Or you could use one of the many methods that are proven to work without the possible negative side effects to a fish. Since there are simple alternatives it really makes no sense to use a fish

You also suggest that there is harm done by cycling with fish.... when I CLEARLY stated ammonia levels undetectable by most test kits. If that's possible, how sure are you that your tank is not currently at an undetectable level of ammonia and your fish are being harmed.

Through excessive water changes. But really, what is easier; Dose a bit of ammonia and let the tank do its thing, testing occasionally, or throw a fish into an uncycled tank, and test frequently for ammonia and change water when it comes up? I'll stick to less testing, no water changes, and no risk to fish.

Lets say you cycle your tank in YOUR method, and have a proportional level of ammonia production and consumption. What happens when you add another fish? Yeah...ammonia levels go up, whether you're able to detect it or not. Then bacteria levels increase as they consume it. Do you feel every time you add a new fish, you're harming your fish?

Whats to say dosing ammonia to 2-4ppm and letting the tank cycle can't handle far more than what our fish produce? I'd guess it cycles a tank more completely to handle a bio-load of that far beyond the first few fish we add.

Keeping fish isn't rocket science, but some people just seem to enjoy making it as much work as possible. I don't.

You seem to be making it more difficult. More testing and water cahnges.

 

[Engloid]

I'm well aware you didn't, you offered it as an alternative. But there are other proven methods that don't need a fish, so why use one?


Seems maybe you should re-read my post, as that was never said.




Through excessive water changes. But really, what is easier; Dose a bit of ammonia and let the tank do its thing, testing occasionally, or throw a fish into an uncycled tank, and test frequently for ammonia and change water when it comes up? I'll stick to less testing, no water changes, and no risk to fish.



Whats to say dosing ammonia to 2-4ppm and letting the tank cycle can't handle far more than what our fish produce? I'd guess it cycles a tank more completely to handle a bio-load of that far beyond the first few fish we add.



You seem to be making it more difficult. More testing and water cahnges.

You do it your way and I will do it mine. Simply put, if you think my way doesnt work, you are wrong. No sense in arguing that point, and I wont.

 

[Instigate]

You do it your way and I will do it mine. Simply put, if you think my way doesnt work, you are wrong. No sense in arguing that point, and I wont.

I lol'd, don't take your ball and go home. No one said using a fish to cycle doesn't work, obviously that used to be the way it was done before people knew better. Now we have a more humane, easier way.

 

[Engloid]

Stuff like this always cracks me up. There's people out there spending $150 a bag for dog food and they think that somebody spending half that much is being inhumane to their dog. There are still people screaming about certain dog foods, claiming they have antifreeze in them. If you admit that you feed your dog one of these Foods they will try to shame you and put you down as if you're abusing your dog. It's really pretty ludicrous.

 

[Instigate]

Stuff like this always cracks me up. There's people out there spending $150 a bag for dog food and they think that somebody spending half that much is being inhumane to their dog. There are still people screaming about certain dog foods, claiming they have antifreeze in them. If you admit that you feed your dog one of these Foods they will try to shame you and put you down as if you're abusing your dog. It's really pretty ludicrous.

How upsetting for you.

 

[Engloid]

It doesn't upset me a bit. I find it kind of amusing when people like to criticize others over such nitpicky things as a means of stroking their own ego. It shows how fragile their egos really are.

 

[sde1500]

You do it your way and I will do it mine. Simply put, if you think my way doesnt work, you are wrong. No sense in arguing that point, and I wont.

Literally never said it doesn't work. Just pointed out that ammonia is toxic to a fish. And that the easiest way to cycle a tank is just add some ammonia source, food or pure ammonia, and let the tank do its thing. You say people like making it hard, but how is adding a piece of shrimp and watching the cycle happen harder than adding a fish, testing to make sure ammonia doesn't spike, and doing water changes to prevent ammonia build up? You want to dig in and call people silly, equating it to dog food fine.

 

[AcroNem]

I am starting a saltwater tank and am waiting for it to cycle. I am also an ichthyologist so I have a strong background in fish biology and am increasingly annoyed with LFS pushing to cycle with a live fish and a bottle of beneficial bacteria rather than a fishless cycle. I understand the old way has always been to cycle with a fish, but we know that to be cruel now (even though folks still do it). What are others thoughts? I had a store employee practically insult me today for not wanting to use a fish to cycle so I am a bit miffed.

Degree says I'm just a Biologist, but I've been studying coral biology and working in public aquariums long enough that I don't even go to most stores anymore. I'm more and more annoyed as I go and hear the misinformation, blatant lies or "hobby science" as I like to call it being spewed constantly.

I am and always have been one to establish a system with no fish, using ammonium chloride. It's a very outdated, and unnecessarily cruel method to use a fish to establish a system properly.

 

[Instigate]

It doesn't upset me a bit. I find it kind of amusing when people like to criticize others over such nitpicky things as a means of stroking their own ego. It shows how fragile their egos really are.

Just trying to educate the ignorant bud. Are you really trying to say that daily testing and water changes are easier than just putting in some ammonia and walking away? What? lol? If you don't believe cycling with a fish is inhumane, you at least have to admit fishless is less work and costs less as well.

 

[sde1500]

Just trying to educate the ignorant bud. Are you really trying to say that daily testing and water changes are easier than just putting in some ammonia and walking away? What? lol?

He devolves to insults because some disagree with his methods, yet others have an ego problem.

 

[Engloid]

He devolves to insults because some disagree with his methods, yet others have an ego problem.

You must have just missed the part where he said I was an idiot. Perhaps that says something about you. Just hit the block button and quit even talkin to me or about me. I care nothing about what you have to say and you apparently don't want to hear my opinions either. It's pretty simple. Just stop acting so childish

 

[Instigate]

You must have just missed the part where he said I was an idiot. Perhaps that says something about you. Just hit the block button and quit even talkin to me or about me. I care nothing about what you have to say and you apparently don't want to hear my opinions either. It's pretty simple. Just stop acting so childish

LOL? Where did I say that? You are mistaken.

/I didn't realize you could read my thoughts.

 

[Engloid]

Stop. Move along.

 

[Engloid]

When I block people I still get notifications of their post. How can this be changed?

 

[4FordFamily]

OK everyone reel it back personal attacks will not be tolerated. Focus on the topic at hand and nothing more.

 

[LMDAVE]

I'm in the middle of a new start up with Fritzturbo start and used fish after day 3 (4 small fish in a 100 gallon system). Never once was there ammonia detectable, and I'm feeding my bacteria with the current fish food I feed my fish and fish waste. I did this with my last build. The fish are very happy and relaxed by my observation and testing. I think it is unfair to say to someone that you are being cruel to your fish. If water is being tested daily and no ammonia is present, and the bacteria is doing its job and multiplying, and fish are happy, relaxed, eating well, there's no issue there. It might not be for every one, but its not right to tell someone they are being cruel without knowing their tank.

 

[Instigate]

I'm in the middle of a new start up with Fritzturbo start and used fish after day 3 (4 small fish in a 100 gallon system). Never once was there ammonia detectable, and I'm feeding my bacteria with the current fish food I feed my fish and fish waste. I did this with my last build. The fish are very happy and relaxed by my observation and testing. I think it is unfair to say to someone that you are being cruel to your fish. If water is being tested daily and no ammonia is present, and the bacteria is doing its job and multiplying, and fish are happy, relaxed, eating well, there's no issue there. It might not be for every one, but its not right to tell someone they are being cruel without knowing their tank.

I'm not sure you can really know wither or not it's affecting them. Why take the risk? Why create extra work? Only to satisfy ones need for instant gratification imo. Putting the humane or inhumane aside, it is at a minimum more work and more cost.

 

[SDK]

My case for a fish free cycle is right in my build thread. After years away, my nano build is my first attempt at doing it the new way.

I initially used the Red Sea system and later added some spare Bio Spira after cycling my QT tank.

This tank went through the preliminary cycle more quickly and painlessly than any I have ever started up. At 9 weeks I have already been through a brief and light ugly phase (just four days) and now I have the light, manageable green algae and coralline growth that I normally wouldn’t see for months. The glass is clean and the substrate is white without me needing to scrape or stir. This tank has had rock solid parameters throughout, and I am getting visible growth on an Acro frag. All corals and CUC are thriving.

Besides generally being very on top of everything, I believe that the process has been greatly simplified by removing the complication of having fish and needing to feed them. I have been able to “very” slowly add controlled amounts of food at my pace. Primarily a few algae wafers for the CUC and a bit of target coral feeding. Both of which I could reduce or stop any time as I ramped up the lighting.

I currently have two small fish in QT and the tank will be close to four months old before I add them. This method has been successful enough that I wouldn’t do it any other way going forward.