Tank cycling and animal stress - what stores push vs whats right

[LMDAVE]

I have a different theory. I'd rather have my bacteria seeding and multiplying by processing the current fishfood I'm using and current fish vs. a table shrimp and bottled ammonia. Maybe at the end of the day its the same microfauna regardless of what you use, but it does work. I can observe fish behavior, breathing, eating habits, hiding, etc, to know if there is something up. Like I said,its not for everyone, and I'm sure there are situations where it is being abused and harmful to fish, but with the right amount of testing and observation, I don't see the harm in it.

 

[Instigate]

I have a different theory. I'd rather have my bacteria seeding and multiplying by processing the current fishfood I'm using and current fish vs. a table shrimp and bottled ammonia. Maybe at the end of the day its the same microfauna regardless of what you use, but it does work. I can observe fish behavior, breathing, eating habits, hiding, etc, to know if there is something up. Like I said,its not for everyone, and I'm sure there are situations where it is being abused and harmful to fish, but with the right amount of testing and observation, I don't see the harm in it.

As stated before, no one is saying it doesn't work. Obviously you can observe fish behavior but that doesn't tell you the whole story, you don't know if it's damaging the fish or not. I'll say it again: Why take the risk? Why create extra work? Only to satisfy ones need for instant gratification imo. Putting the humane or inhumane aside, it is at a minimum more work and more cost.

 

[Engloid]

Is your QT water cycled?

 

[Brew12]

I don't feel a blanket statement can be made that cycling an aquarium with live fish cannot be done in a humane manner. It's not my preferred manner, and it can be inhumane imo, but it doesn't have to be. If you start a tank with live rock or with a bottled bacteria product is it inhumane to add a fish? I don't think so.
Some of us who do this will dose up to 2ppm of pure ammonia and monitor to see how long it takes to drop. Some times it can take a few days and we feel like our tank hasn't "cycled" until it can drop 2ppm in 24 hours. Let me ask, how much ammonia do we think a fish will produce in a day? Do we think a single fish, fed lightly, will produce 2ppm of ammonia in 40g of water? I hope not.
Same with adding a shrimp and letting it decay. Using this method we can call a tank cycled in a week or less. Think about the mass of that shrimp and how many weeks of feeding that represents for a single small fish used to cycle an aquarium. Just because a tank isn't ready to instantly process 2ppm or can't handle a raw shrimp decaying in under a week does not mean the tank isn't ready for a small fish.
My preference is to use pure ammonia and "test" the tank after using bottled bacteria to ensure that the product didn't go bad in shipment/storage.

I think part of the issue is that a tank being "cycled" really doesn't mean anything. When is a tank "cycled"? Who knows. The term comes from the ammonia cycle which is ongoing. It's not a process that ever stops in our systems. I consider a tank to be cycled when it is safe to handle whatever bioload we put in it.

As an example. When I set up my current 187g system I filled my tank in the morning and had 3 tangs, a foxface and some smaller fish in it before I went to bed. Did I "cycle" the tank? Absolutely not. Was it inhumane? Nope. So how did I get away with this? Quite simply, I used live rock. I had torn down my 120g system and put around 1/2 the rock into a brute container with the fish while I tore that tank down and set up the new one. That rock went back into my 187g system (along with around 50% new dry rock) once the water came up to temp. As an insurance policy I added a bunch of macro algae into my sump which will directly absorb ammonia.

And to further the point that it can be done safely, @Lasse developed recommendations on how to set up and cycle a tank that have been used in Europe for years. He recently put it in article format here on R2R.
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/15-steps-to-starting-a-saltwater-aquarium-the-lasse-method.597/
I feel it is safe to say that if this method was considered inhumane it would never have caught on like it has.

The only thing I am strongly against is cycling a tank that was set up with dry rock and no bottled bacteria product by using a fish.

 

[SDK]

Is your QT water cycled?

If this was addressed to me, yes it is...

I kept two bags of Matrix and an extra chunk of LR in my display tank for a month, then used these, along with water from my DT to set up the QT. Even then, I used my Red Sea Reef Mature kit to further confirm the cycle was complete on the QT for a few more weeks before a fish saw the inside of it. Now I can feed the new arrivals heavily in a bare bottom, fully cycled and easy to clean tank while continuing to dial in my display...

 

[Instigate]

I don't feel a blanket statement can be made that cycling an aquarium with live fish cannot be done in a humane manner. It's not my preferred manner, and it can be inhumane imo, but it doesn't have to be. If you start a tank with live rock or with a bottled bacteria product is it inhumane to add a fish? I don't think so.
Some of us who do this will dose up to 2ppm of pure ammonia and monitor to see how long it takes to drop. Some times it can take a few days and we feel like our tank hasn't "cycled" until it can drop 2ppm in 24 hours. Let me ask, how much ammonia do we think a fish will produce in a day? Do we think a single fish, fed lightly, will produce 2ppm of ammonia in 40g of water? I hope not.
Same with adding a shrimp and letting it decay. Using this method we can call a tank cycled in a week or less. Think about the mass of that shrimp and how many weeks of feeding that represents for a single small fish used to cycle an aquarium. Just because a tank isn't ready to instantly process 2ppm or can't handle a raw shrimp decaying in under a week does not mean the tank isn't ready for a small fish.
My preference is to use pure ammonia and "test" the tank after using bottled bacteria to ensure that the product didn't go bad in shipment/storage.

I think part of the issue is that a tank being "cycled" really doesn't mean anything. When is a tank "cycled"? Who knows. The term comes from the ammonia cycle which is ongoing. It's not a process that ever stops in our systems. I consider a tank to be cycled when it is safe to handle whatever bioload we put in it.

As an example. When I set up my current 187g system I filled my tank in the morning and had 3 tangs, a foxface and some smaller fish in it before I went to bed. Did I "cycle" the tank? Absolutely not. Was it inhumane? Nope. So how did I get away with this? Quite simply, I used live rock. I had torn down my 120g system and put around 1/2 the rock into a brute container with the fish while I tore that tank down and set up the new one. That rock went back into my 187g system (along with around 50% new dry rock) once the water came up to temp. As an insurance policy I added a bunch of macro algae into my sump which will directly absorb ammonia.

And to further the point that it can be done safely, @Lasse developed recommendations on how to set up and cycle a tank that have been used in Europe for years. He recently put it in article format here on R2R.
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/15-steps-to-starting-a-saltwater-aquarium-the-lasse-method.597/
I feel it is safe to say that if this method was considered inhumane it would never have caught on like it has.

The only thing I am strongly against is cycling a tank that was set up with dry rock and no bottled bacteria product by using a fish.

I agree with all that, but transferring a tank is not the same as cycling a tank of course. I'm saying using a fish to cycle is more work and more cost and you have to be on it with testing and water changes and even then you have no way of truly knowing if it has effected the fish or not.

/The thing is that most people cycling a tank are new to this and likely using dry rock.

 

[Instigate]

Is your QT water cycled?

Always. Well, the rock or sponge is cycled. The water is not where nitrifying bacteria live.

 

[Brew12]

I agree with all that, but transferring a tank is not the same as cycling a tank of course. I'm saying using a fish to cycle is more work and more cost and you have to be on it with testing and water changes and even then you have no way of truly knowing if it has effected the fish or not.

What is the difference? Does it matter where the physical location of the tank was that the live rock came from? Does it matter if the bacteria for the nitrogen cycle came on a piece of live rock from one of my systems or was in a bottle?
As long as we have enough bacteria/algae to eliminate the ammonia at the rate it is being produced I don't see why it would be inhumane to add a fish. And yes, in a pinch I have moved fish into a clean QT with nothing but macro algae and never saw an ammonia spike. I was monitoring it with a Seneye reef monitor but I would have been fine with just using an API test kit. I would argue that was far and away the easiest and cheapest manner of making a tank safe for fish.

Do I recommend that people add something like ammonia or a dead shrimp to verify that their tank is ready for fish? Absolutely. In my case, since I was 100% confident of the history of the rock I felt no need to test it's ability to process ammonia. Do I feel it is inhumane to put a fish in a tank without having done that verification? Not at all. Not a best practice but not inhumane.

 

[LMDAVE]

... it is at a minimum more work and more cost.

It's no extra work or cost. They were going to get fed either way if they were in still in my old system or the new system. But really, I know its your opinion, but in my case the tank was safe and processing ammonia, I'd rather have the bacteria processing my current bioload and building from there. There are many situations where someone can be inhumane to fish after the fishless cycle.

Feel free to follow my build log. Things are going good so far, like Brew12 mentioned above, I also used a small amount of live rock from previous system (only about 10%), as well as some matrix to go along with the Turbostart bacteria. Maybe I got lucky, but the numbers are good the fish are happy, and the few test corals are open.

 

[Instigate]

What is the difference? Does it matter where the physical location of the tank was that the live rock came from? Does it matter if the bacteria for the nitrogen cycle came on a piece of live rock from one of my systems or was in a bottle?

The thing is that most people cycling a tank are new to this and likely using dry rock. When I think of "cycling" a tank I think of building a bacterial population where there was not one previously or not enough of a population. If you're just moving LR from a running system to a different glass box I wouldn't call that cycling. I would call that skip-cycling.

As long as we have enough bacteria/algae to eliminate the ammonia at the rate it is being produced I don't see why it would be inhumane to add a fish.

Agreed

And yes, in a pinch I have moved fish into a clean QT with nothing but macro algae and never saw an ammonia spike. I was monitoring it with a Seneye reef monitor but I would have been fine with just using an API test kit. I would argue that was far and away the easiest and cheapest manner of making a tank safe for fish.

Algae uptakes ammonia directly. I saw someone post that they had did this, maybe it was you. That is something I've been wanting to try.

Do I recommend that people add something like ammonia or a dead shrimp to verify that their tank is ready for fish? Absolutely. In my case, since I was 100% confident of the history of the rock I felt no need to test it's ability to process ammonia. Do I feel it is inhumane to put a fish in a tank without having done that verification? Not at all. Not a best practice but not inhumane.

Again, I agree, but only if you're 100% confident of the history of the rock as I've done the same. But like I said, that I would call a skip-cycle. Like they do at trade shows.

 

[Instigate]

It's no extra work or cost. They were going to get fed either way if they were in still in my old system or the new system. But really, I know its your opinion, but in my case the tank was safe and processing ammonia, I'd rather have the bacteria processing my current bioload and building from there. There are many situations where someone can be inhumane to fish after the fishless cycle.

Feel free to follow my build log. Things are going good so far, like Brew12 mentioned above, I also used a small amount of live rock from previous system (only about 10%), as well as some matrix to go along with the Turbostart bacteria. Maybe I got lucky, but the numbers are good the fish are happy, and the few test corals are open.

The extra work is the frequent monitoring for ammonia and the extra cost is the extra water changes.

You guys seem to be stuck on my use of the word inhumane, maybe I used it in too broad of a way. Maybe I should have said: When people use a fish for cycling, it's usually done in an inhumane way. It seems very unnecessary.

 

[Brew12]

If you're just moving LR from a running system to a different glass box I wouldn't call that cycling. I would call that skip-cycling.

Absolutely. Skip-cycling has also been the commonly used term for adding a bottled bacteria product which is what the OP was recommended to do. What the LFS employee advised the OP to do was not problematic which was my point. There is nothing wrong

For some reason, the term skip cycling has fallen out of common use. At least I don't see it used very much. Instead, it is common to talk about people using a bottled bacteria product or live rock to seed a tank and start the cycling process.
What we are doing is skip cycling and then verifying with ammonia or shrimp. We are also giving time for the bacteria count to increase which is a good thing.

So to the point of the OP.

I am also an ichthyologist so I have a strong background in fish biology and am increasingly annoyed with LFS pushing to cycle with a live fish and a bottle of beneficial bacteria rather than a fishless cycle. I understand the old way has always been to cycle with a fish, but we know that to be cruel now (even though folks still do it). What are others thoughts? I had a store employee practically insult me today for not wanting to use a fish to cycle so I am a bit miffed.

What was recommended was to skip cycle using a fish and bottled bacteria product. I don't believe that to be cruel. It isn't my preferred method and not what I would recommend but that is about all I can say about it.

 

[Instigate]

Absolutely. Skip-cycling has also been the commonly used term for adding a bottled bacteria product which is what the OP was recommended to do. What the LFS employee advised the OP to do was not problematic which was my point. There is nothing wrong

For some reason, the term skip cycling has fallen out of common use. At least I don't see it used very much. Instead, it is common to talk about people using a bottled bacteria product or live rock to seed a tank and start the cycling process.
What we are doing is skip cycling and then verifying with ammonia or shrimp. We are also giving time for the bacteria count to increase which is a good thing also.

So to the point of the OP.

What was recommended was to skip cycle using a fish and bottled bacteria product. I don't believe that to be cruel. It isn't my preferred method and not what I would recommend but that is about all I can say about it.

Well it would depend on the bacteria product. If we're talking Fritzime Turbostart yeah that would be no problem, would still be more work than without a fish but you would likely be fine. If the LFS was selling Microbacter7 you would be in trouble because that's not a live bacteria it takes about a week to see the effects in my experience. And in that week you'd better be on it with testing and changes. Just seems like unnecessary work and risk just because the LFS wants to sell you a fish or because you want a fish right now today.

/Also I didn't see any mention of LR, so I wouldn't say what was recommended was a skip cycle. Maybe they did and OP just didn't mention it, but we don't know.

 

[Brew12]

If the LFS was selling Microbacter7 you would be in trouble because that's not a live bacteria it takes about a week to see the effects in my experience.

I'm not sure, and I would love to see this tested. I agree that it will not pass a 2ppm digestion test for around a week. Would it safely handle ammonia production from a single fish in a reasonably sized system that was properly fed? I wouldn't be surprised if it would.
I'm not sure about unnecessary work, but I agree it is unnecessary risk. That is why I have my own opinions on what I recommend as a best practice. I have a pretty low tolerance for risk when it comes to setting up a tank. What he was told to do wasn't anywhere near what I would do but that doesn't make it wrong or cruel as the OP felt it was.

 

[Lasse]

Can you really treat a fish in a inhumane way

To start a new aquarium the way I do - you will not get any measurable free NH3 at all – no way it can harm a fish. The fish I use is not a test pilot – it is my NH3/NH4 producer in order to start the nitrification cycle. With this method – if you follow the sparse feeding schedule and add bacteria in some or another form during the first three weeks – it is very easy way to establish the nitrification cycle.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Nokiaec11]

I prefer no fish...if you wish to spead up the process a little, buy some aquacultured rock that has been cured in the gulf for a long period of time, and place it directly in your tank; do not rinse the rock prior to adding to your tank; it will come wet and wrapped in newspaper, and in a plasitc bag...The rock is available around the gulf area, but can be ordered online...The rock will be crammed with natural bacteria, and may have some extra goodies such as corals, nice shrimp, feather dusters, or plant life all attached to or inside the rock, also check the bag...The rock will quickly bacteriarize your filtration system...Also, I add plenty of snails after a couple of weeks...if you wish destory the brown ugly stuff quickly get some Chocolate Chip Starfish. You do not need to fill your tank with the aquacultured rock, it can be pricey, but try have at least a couple of nice size pieces depending on the size of the tank....Check parameters after the fisrt week, and twice a week for the next 2 weeks. 3 weeks and I have always been good to go. It will not hurt to use bateria in a bottle, ocean bacteria is a lot better...I have used this method 3 times, and never had an issue

 

[Mrowe82604]

I am starting a saltwater tank and am waiting for it to cycle. I am also an ichthyologist so I have a strong background in fish biology and am increasingly annoyed with LFS pushing to cycle with a live fish and a bottle of beneficial bacteria rather than a fishless cycle. I understand the old way has always been to cycle with a fish, but we know that to be cruel now (even though folks still do it). What are others thoughts? I had a store employee practically insult me today for not wanting to use a fish to cycle so I am a bit miffed.

Ignorance on his part. With your back round and education he should be learning from your words. That said.
Many hobbyists in the field don't take into account the well being of the pets they are about to take care of.
IMO most hobbyists forget they are living things (pets) and should be treated as such.
Great point you brought up. Wish people can see it more like yourself.

 

[vetteguy53081]

In part, too many hobbyists starting up and falling victim to impulse. We all say to go slow and stock slow AFTER Cycling and cant count how many have 4-6 fish, anemone and hammer coral in the first week to two.

 

[Globalbutterfly]

First, I freely admit to being a newbie to the hobby and would not presume to advise those of you with years actual experience. Further, I am not a biologist and have no specialized experience or education.

However, when I was cycling my first tank (without fish but a with a bunch of ignorantly and inappropriately captured and kept wild hermit crabs) I kept asking my LFS if I could add a fish yet (because my numbers were SO close to untraceable.) One of their workers explained that, YES, I could probably add a cheap damsel or clown fish and it would probably survive. BUT that ammonia COULD permanently scar their gills & lungs, diminishing their ability to breath . . . much like asthma in a child.

I don’t know if that is scientifically accurate, but on the chance it IS, that ends the debate for me. Regardless of the cost or “value” of the fish, I am the custodian of each animal I bring home and responsible for its health and well being. If that requires a slightly longer cycle, with a bit more testing and monitoring on my part, that seems more than reasonable.

 

[Brew12]

First, I freely admit to being a newbie to the hobby and would not presume to advise those of you with years actual experience. Further, I am not a biologist and have no specialized experience or education.

However, when I was cycling my first tank (without fish but a with a bunch of ignorantly and inappropriately captured and kept wild hermit crabs) I kept asking my LFS if I could add a fish yet (because my numbers were SO close to untraceable.) One of their workers explained that, YES, I could probably add a cheap damsel or clown fish and it would probably survive. BUT that ammonia COULD permanently scar their gills & lungs, diminishing their ability to breath . . . much like asthma in a child.

I don’t know if that is scientifically accurate, but on the chance it IS, that ends the debate for me. Regardless of the cost or “value” of the fish, I am the custodian of each animal I bring home and responsible for its health and well being. If that requires a slightly longer cycle, with a bit more testing and monitoring on my part, that seems more than reasonable.

I feel the dynamic changes when the use of a nitrifying bacteria product is added. At that point you aren't (in theory) risking damage to the fish. Instead of cycling a tank slowly and naturally you are rapidly adding the nitrifying bacteria directly. There is no reason to expect any ammonia build up at this point.