Tank Disaster

[Twosixpax]

Hey guys,

Following a replacement tank set up during which there appears to have been accidental contamination with QT water, we have lost 9 out of the 11 fish in the tank (2 Pyramid Butterflies, pair of Swallowtail Angels, a Watanabe Angel, pair of Clowns, a Copperband, and a Blotched Anthias). We also lost c. 70% of corals but this may be due to a botched tank transfer rather than whatever is killing the fish.

The disease appears to be bacterial (some fish had cloudy eyes and all had damage to fins (photos attached). It killed the 9 fish in a week. I did dose KanaPlex per directions. I don't think this is velvet, but I'm no expert. Any help identifying would be greatly appreciated.

If the remaining 2 fish die (a Foxface Lo - our first fish 2 years ago, and a Gem Tang) I'll likely leave the tank fallow for 76+ days just to be as safe as possible, but should I do anything else if this is bacrterial - massive water changes? Treat water with something? Tear down!?).

If they survive how should I move forward? Assume the bacteria is still in the system but at lower levels than their immunity can deal with, so I do not add new fish for some time?

Thanks!

 

[davidcalgary29]

Please post a short video of your surviving fish under white lights.

Do you have a quarantine/hospital tank set up? I'd hate for you to lose any more fish -- especially that gem tang.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hey guys,

Following a replacement tank set up during which there appears to have been accidental contamination with QT water, we have lost 9 out of the 11 fish in the tank (2 Pyramid Butterflies, pair of Swallowtail Angels, a Watanabe Angel, pair of Clowns, a Copperband, and a Blotched Anthias). We also lost c. 70% of corals but this may be due to a botched tank transfer rather than whatever is killing the fish.

The disease appears to be bacterial (some fish had cloudy eyes and all had damage to fins (photos attached). It killed the 9 fish in a week. I did dose KanaPlex per directions. I don't think this is velvet, but I'm no expert. Any help identifying would be greatly appreciated.

If the remaining 2 fish die (a Foxface Lo - our first fish 2 years ago, and a Gem Tang) I'll likely leave the tank fallow for 76+ days just to be as safe as possible, but should I do anything else if this is bacrterial - massive water changes? Treat water with something? Tear down!?).

If they survive how should I move forward? Assume the bacteria is still in the system but at lower levels than their immunity can deal with, so I do not add new fish for some time?

Thanks!

There’s heavy bacterial activity going on here and I agree it’s associated with water/water quality and remaining fish should be treated in quarantine with added aeration using air stone and treatment is seachem neoplex or Maracyn 2 for at least 5 days

 

[kevgib67]

I’m sure the fish medics will jump in and give you solid information. So sorry, I hate to hear and see this. Best of luck with the last two.

 

[Twosixpax]

Please post a short video of your surviving fish under white lights.

Do you have a quarantine/hospital tank set up? I'd hate for you to lose any more fish -- especially that gem tang.

Will video them when I get home - thx.

They are the only surviving 2 fish left in the DT so it's effectively become a QT (unless I have to dose copper or something else that will stay in the system).

 

[MnFish1]

Hey guys,

Following a replacement tank set up during which there appears to have been accidental contamination with QT water, we have lost 9 out of the 11 fish in the tank (2 Pyramid Butterflies, pair of Swallowtail Angels, a Watanabe Angel, pair of Clowns, a Copperband, and a Blotched Anthias). We also lost c. 70% of corals but this may be due to a botched tank transfer rather than whatever is killing the fish.

The disease appears to be bacterial (some fish had cloudy eyes and all had damage to fins (photos attached). It killed the 9 fish in a week. I did dose KanaPlex per directions. I don't think this is velvet, but I'm no expert. Any help identifying would be greatly appreciated.

If the remaining 2 fish die (a Foxface Lo - our first fish 2 years ago, and a Gem Tang) I'll likely leave the tank fallow for 76+ days just to be as safe as possible, but should I do anything else if this is bacrterial - massive water changes? Treat water with something? Tear down!?).

If they survive how should I move forward? Assume the bacteria is still in the system but at lower levels than their immunity can deal with, so I do not add new fish for some time?

Thanks!

Can you explain a little further - the way I understand it - you got a replacement tank - which you think got 'contaminated' by QT water? What contaminant do you think was in the QT water? If it was copper, I can see a problem with the inverts.

However - I don't see how that would have affected the fish. FWIW - the fact that you used kanaplex - mitigates a bit against it being a 'bacterial' problem that would kill that many fish. Usually a bacterial infection affects an individual fish - maybe from an injury, etc - but not 'most fish'. And the bacteria would not necessarily affect coral (and you lost 70% - BTW - what was the potential botched tank transfer - did any shrimp, snails, etc if you have some die?)

My feeling is that (unless this was an extremely virulent vibrio or pseudomonas infection - or some other very odd bacteria) this relates to another toxin of some sort which has damaged the mucus on the body/eyes/fins - which THEN may have indeed become infected.

In any case - sorry - what a horrible loss. The more information you can give - the more information we can use to help you - and your current fish. For example.

Day 1. We did A
Day 2. Fish 1 Died
Day 3. etc etc etc

 

[Twosixpax]

There’s heavy bacterial activity going on here and I agree it’s associated with water/water quality and remaining fish should be treated in quarantine with added aeration using air stone and treatment is seachem neoplex or Maracyn 2 for at least 5 days

Can you explain a little further - the way I understand it - you got a replacement tank - which you think got 'contaminated' by QT water? What contaminant do you think was in the QT water? If it was copper, I can see a problem with the inverts.

However - I don't see how that would have affected the fish. FWIW - the fact that you used kanaplex - mitigates a bit against it being a 'bacterial' problem that would kill that many fish. Usually a bacterial infection affects an individual fish - maybe from an injury, etc - but not 'most fish'. And the bacteria would not necessarily affect coral (and you lost 70% - BTW - what was the potential botched tank transfer - did any shrimp, snails, etc if you have some die?)

My feeling is that (unless this was an extremely virulent vibrio or pseudomonas infection - or some other very odd bacteria) this relates to another toxin of some sort which has damaged the mucus on the body/eyes/fins - which THEN may have indeed become infected.

In any case - sorry - what a horrible loss. The more information you can give - the more information we can use to help you - and your current fish. For example.

Day 1. We did A
Day 2. Fish 1 Died
Day 3. etc etc etc

Thanks. All good questions. I probably don't know at least as much as I know, but here's the order of events:

Began upgrading from a 200G tank that was having glass issues to a Red Sea S1000 (so new tank, sump, but existing hardware).

Used a local aquarium service to do the transfer. He set up a very makeshift temp holding tank with it's own sump and put in all rock, corals and 11 fish.

He did forget to put in the heater, but I discovered that within a few hours.

The fish seemed to survive well in the temp tank setup, although some of the more sensitive corals were already showing signs of tissue loss (lighting change?)..

Day 1: it took him about a week to come back and move in the new tank, fill it with the rock and water from the temp tank, and he also rinsed the sand in clean saltwater and reused some of it (I was not a big fan of this but he assured me it would be ok. He also added new Arag-alive sand).

He had broken the skimmer and left about 40 biomedia cubes in a dry bucket (I know, it gets worse) so part of my bio filter was gone (I've since replaced the skimmer) - Nitrates peaked at 39.5 and phosphate at 0.35 before they started coming down.

I have a separate QT - in a moment of weakness a week or two before I had bought a mimic tang at my LFS which died within a couple of days so the tank had been empty for over a week.

while setting up new tanks, he ran out of newly mixed saltwater to top up the new larger tank and unfortunately took 5G of the old water from the QT and put it into the new tank (told you it got worse).

He then put the fish and corals into the new tank.

Day 3: A couple of days after the new tank was up and running one of the pyramid butterflies started hiding and getting listless - developed what looked like popeye in one eye. Thought it may be wound-related following the tank transfer.

Day 6: First Pyramid butterfly died.

Day 15 : Second pyramid began showing signs of cloudy eyes (both eyes)

Day 16: Began dosing KanaPlex in DT after Copperband also began showing slight cloudiness in eyes.

Day 17: Second Pyramid died. Copperband showing signs of infection on flanks.

Day 18: Copperband died. Second dose of KanaPlex. Watanabe Angel died over night - difficult to see what the cause was as a large Sallylightfoot crab was making a meal of her. Interestingly, the Sallylightfoot also died a couple of days later.

Day 19: Both Swallowtail Angelfish and both Clownfish died (pictures posted above)

Day 20: Foxface and Gem Tang remain, Foxface stopped eating for a day but ate an hour ago. Gem Tang seems fine so far. Final KanaPlex dose due tonight.

The corals I believe may have died from the stress of the tank transfers - it seemed to be the Acros and Montis and a large Stylo and Favia that got hit, the Duncans and GSP survived - go figure..

Other than the spike in nitrates other parameters have stayed pretty stable - pH, temp, salinity. Alkalinty did drop a little in the temp tank but is now back around 9.

 

[Tamberav]

Did you ever test ammonia? You said you had a nitrate spike and since the transfer sounds sloppy... just wondering if that could have been part of the issue. It is harder to know exactly what happened when someone else is doing it.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks. All good questions. I probably don't know at least as much as I know, but here's the order of events:

Began upgrading from a 200G tank that was having glass issues to a Red Sea S1000 (so new tank, sump, but existing hardware).

Used a local aquarium service to do the transfer. He set up a very makeshift temp holding tank with it's own sump and put in all rock, corals and 11 fish.

He did forget to put in the heater, but I discovered that within a few hours.

The fish seemed to survive well in the temp tank setup, although some of the more sensitive corals were already showing signs of tissue loss (lighting change?)..

Day 1: it took him about a week to come back and move in the new tank, fill it with the rock and water from the temp tank, and he also rinsed the sand in clean saltwater and reused some of it (I was not a big fan of this but he assured me it would be ok. He also added new Arag-alive sand).

He had broken the skimmer and left about 40 biomedia cubes in a dry bucket (I know, it gets worse) so part of my bio filter was gone (I've since replaced the skimmer) - Nitrates peaked at 39.5 and phosphate at 0.35 before they started coming down.

I have a separate QT - in a moment of weakness a week or two before I had bought a mimic tang at my LFS which died within a couple of days so the tank had been empty for over a week.

while setting up new tanks, he ran out of newly mixed saltwater to top up the new larger tank and unfortunately took 5G of the old water from the QT and put it into the new tank (told you it got worse).

He then put the fish and corals into the new tank.

Day 3: A couple of days after the new tank was up and running one of the pyramid butterflies started hiding and getting listless - developed what looked like popeye in one eye. Thought it may be wound-related following the tank transfer.

Day 6: First Pyramid butterfly died.

Day 15 : Second pyramid began showing signs of cloudy eyes (both eyes)

Day 16: Began dosing KanaPlex in DT after Copperband also began showing slight cloudiness in eyes.

Day 17: Second Pyramid died. Copperband showing signs of infection on flanks.

Day 18: Copperband died. Second dose of KanaPlex. Watanabe Angel died over night - difficult to see what the cause was as a large Sallylightfoot crab was making a meal of her. Interestingly, the Sallylightfoot also died a couple of days later.

Day 19: Both Swallowtail Angelfish and both Clownfish died (pictures posted above)

Day 20: Foxface and Gem Tang remain, Foxface stopped eating for a day but ate an hour ago. Gem Tang seems fine so far. Final KanaPlex dose due tonight.

The corals I believe may have died from the stress of the tank transfers - it seemed to be the Acros and Montis and a large Stylo and Favia that got hit, the Duncans and GSP survived - go figure..

Other than the spike in nitrates other parameters have stayed pretty stable - pH, temp, salinity. Alkalinty did drop a little in the temp tank but is now back around 9.

Cloudy eyes while ammonia burn can be contributor is caused often by injury or bacterial infection. In the case of more than one having both eyes cloudy will be caused bt flukes which you would see obvious signs other than cloudy eyes such as rapid breathing, yawning, sudden darting while swimming and more.
Bacterial is still my suspicion and bacterial is NOT confined to one fish but can be rather widespread and appear as dark patches, white patches, torn or tattered fins, cloudy eyes, and red streaks or sores especially tanks that are overfed or overcrowded. Theres 2 types of infections and each have their own challenges. Gram positive infections can be much slower acting, but can sometimes be difficult to spot before it’s late in the infection.
Gram negative infections act quickly, sometimes killing the fish within 24 hours of onset. Treatment should be done with a broad-spectrum antibiotic or combining antibiotics for the widest spectrum possible such as Seachem Kanaplex, Fenbenzadole and Metroplex which provides the widest spectrum of antibiotics for gram negative and positive infections and are safe to mix.
Add aeration during treatment and monitor ammonia levels with a reliable test kit.

Issue with coral is that kanaplex is NOT coral or invert safe and if applied in the same tank will cause havoc. Kanaplex takes about a week to fully take effect and see signs of clearing. Three days will not allow any significant change yet

 

[Twosixpax]

Did you ever test ammonia? You said you had a nitrate spike and since the transfer sounds sloppy... just wondering if that could have been part of the issue. It is harder to know exactly what happened when someone else is doing it.

It is, and I was missing for around 5 days as I had to fly back to Scotland for a few days. The Seneye on the tank didnt see ammonia above 0.02 (it reads 0.01 even when nothing is going wrong), but there could have been an initial spike prior to the nitrates spiking (and before the Seneye was reconnected)..

 

[Twosixpax]

Cloudy eyes while ammonia burn can be contributor is caused often by injury or bacterial infection. In the case of more than one having both eyes cloudy will be caused bt flukes which you would see obvious signs other than cloudy eyes such as rapid breathing, yawning, sudden darting while swimming and more.
Bacterial is still my suspicion and bacterial is NOT confined to one fish but can be rather widespread and appear as dark patches, white patches, torn or tattered fins, cloudy eyes, and red streaks or sores especially tanks that are overfed or overcrowded. Theres 2 types of infections and each have their own challenges. Gram positive infections can be much slower acting, but can sometimes be difficult to spot before it’s late in the infection.
Gram negative infections act quickly, sometimes killing the fish within 24 hours of onset. Treatment should be done with a broad-spectrum antibiotic or combining antibiotics for the widest spectrum possible such as Seachem Kanaplex, Fenbenzadole and Metroplex which provides the widest spectrum of antibiotics for gram negative and positive infections and are safe to mix.
Add aeration during treatment and monitor ammonia levels with a reliable test kit.

Issue with coral is that kanaplex is NOT coral or invert safe and if applied in the same tank will cause havoc. Kanaplex takes about a week to fully take effect and see signs of clearing. Three days will not allow any significant change yet

Thanks Vette - much appreciated.

I will try the Fenbenzadole and Metroplex combo and update the thread.

 

[MnFish1]

It is, and I was missing for around 5 days as I had to fly back to Scotland for a few days. The Seneye on the tank didnt see ammonia above 0.02 (it reads 0.01 even when nothing is going wrong), but there could have been an initial spike prior to the nitrates spiking (and before the Seneye was reconnected)..

My guess is that this is a combination of issues. And apologies - and hopefully you will not be moving tanks soon. As said previously - best wishes. - and I'm not sure many of us were aware you were using a seneye

 

[MnFish1]

Cloudy eyes while ammonia burn can be contributor is caused often by injury or bacterial infection. In the case of more than one having both eyes cloudy will be caused bt flukes which you would see obvious signs other than cloudy eyes such as rapid breathing, yawning, sudden darting while swimming and more.
Bacterial is still my suspicion and bacterial is NOT confined to one fish but can be rather widespread and appear as dark patches, white patches, torn or tattered fins, cloudy eyes, and red streaks or sores especially tanks that are overfed or overcrowded. Theres 2 types of infections and each have their own challenges. Gram positive infections can be much slower acting, but can sometimes be difficult to spot before it’s late in the infection.
Gram negative infections act quickly, sometimes killing the fish within 24 hours of onset. Treatment should be done with a broad-spectrum antibiotic or combining antibiotics for the widest spectrum possible such as Seachem Kanaplex, Fenbenzadole and Metroplex which provides the widest spectrum of antibiotics for gram negative and positive infections and are safe to mix.
Add aeration during treatment and monitor ammonia levels with a reliable test kit.

Issue with coral is that kanaplex is NOT coral or invert safe and if applied in the same tank will cause havoc. Kanaplex takes about a week to fully take effect and see signs of clearing. Three days will not allow any significant change yet

Correct. Once Ammonia damages a surface -the automatic cause is not brooklynella or an infection - however - once damaged - all mucus membranes are susceptible to infection - which - I believe - he already treated with kanaplex - unless I've misread

 

[Twosixpax]

My guess is that this is a combination of issues. And apologies - and hopefully you will not be moving tanks soon. As said previously - best wishes. - and I'm not sure many of us were aware you were using a seneye

Thx M, and definitely no apologies necessary - really appreciate the advice and well-wishes from this community.

 

[Twosixpax]

Last 2 fish remain. Foxface took a major turn for the worse overnight - eyes very cloudy and swollen, fins look tattered and discolored and now a ton of white spots. Multiple infections as Mnfish suggested I’m thinking..

 

[anthonygf]

Last 2 fish remain. Foxface took a major turn for the worse overnight - eyes very cloudy and swollen, fins look tattered and discolored and now a ton of white spots. Multiple infections as Mnfish suggested I’m thinking..

WOW! So sorry this has happened to you. I wish I could help.

 

[Twosixpax]

WOW! So sorry this has happened to you. I wish I could help.

Thanks Anthony. Really tough to watch - only 2 years into the hobby but was pretty attached - especially to the Foxface who had a very cool and interactive personality..

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry, I missed your original post. Does the gem tang have spots or just the foxface?

Primary acute bacterial infections across a whole tank of fish is rare (to the point where I've never actually seen that happen).

I think this issue is/was a parasitic infection (or two) that then caused bacterial infection on the damaged tissue.

Can you post a video of the remaining fish under white light?

Jay

 

[Twosixpax]

Sorry, I missed your original post. Does the gem tang have spots or just the foxface?

Primary acute bacterial infections across a whole tank of fish is rare (to the point where I've never actually seen that happen).

I think this issue is/was a parasitic infection (or two) that then caused bacterial infection on the damaged tissue.

Can you post a video of the remaining fish under white light?

Jay

Thanks Jay. The Foxface shortly before he passed away - got considerably worse overnight:

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry to hear. Can’t tell much from the photos, the glassy eyes are a clue, but can be flukes or protozoans. Bacterial more commonly causes more white turbid eyes.

Jay