Tank Transfer Method

[sensei]

@Humblefish

your comments to the previous post would be greatly apreciated.
Thanks

 

[Humblefish]

I was thinking that the parasite could be dormant becuase of the low copper concentration in water from the fish stores.
I can not explain why it took 7 weeks for fish to die if they were never treated for velvet and the only thing I can think is that the parasite was dormant, but if that is the case would the parasite still form trophonds the 7 weeks before fish started to die??
or can it be that fish started to die until the concetration of the parasite was high enough, and it took 7 weeks after I recieved them??
please help me make sense of what happened.

Lets suppose that you do the TTM a couple of hours before 36hours. would I have to do an extra TTM to be sure velvet is gone?

you say that using TTM for velvet is just theoretical. have you ever tested this method to get rid of velvet in a fish that you identified with velvet?

another question:
If I use CP as preventive for velvet, do I have to do the full 30 days at 40mg /g?
what happens if I do just 1 week and supposing fish has velvet, but has not shown jet. would 1 week be able to treat and cure it??
I ask becuase at this stage velvet should be in low concetration in the fish??

Thanks a lot

Subtherapeutic copper still kills most of the parasites, just not all. So, what you get is a fish with a few trophonts still attached, but also a fish whose immune system has been exposed to the pathogen. Therefore, immunity/resistance to said pathogen begins to develop. If you were to release this fish back into the ocean (just as an example), I would be willing to bet he would be fine. His #1 enemy now is this glass box; where the trophonts will drop off, encyst and then release more free swimmers seeking to reinfect him & any fish tank mates. With each passing generation, the parasites slowly grow in number in this confined space. At first the fish's natural immune system is able to keep them at bay, but its a numbers game he will eventually lose. How long until that happens varies greatly from fish to fish.

Running a UV/diatom will filter out some of the free swimmers, buying the fish more time.

Using an herbal remedy, vitamins, garlic will reinforce the fish's natural defenses and/or boost his immune system, buying the fish more time.

But for velvet, only a chemical in the water (e.g. copper, Chloroquine) can zap the free swimmers and end/interrupt the parasite's life cycle for good.

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I have never tested 36 hour TTM for treating Marine Velvet Disease; it just makes sense to me that it should work based on what I know of velvet's life cycle.

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Using CP @ 40mg/gal for 30 days will eliminate velvet, brook, uronema and most strains of ich. The only exception would be if you happened to encounter a strain of ich that took longer than 30 days for all the theronts to be released from their tomonts. Such strains are probably rare, but who can say for sure?

 

[Dodgersfan]

@Humblefish

I’ve got a question about the 72 hour rule: how strict is it? Is it a hard line to never cross or can you go 74, 75, 76 hours and be ok?

Here’s my scenario:

I received new fish today (Saturday) from LA, put them in the first QT about 1PM. I’m not going to be home at 1 pm Tuesday but I could be home around 4pm, 75 hours. will this be ok, or should I transfer them to a new tank either tonight (not a huge fan of putting them through more stress today). Or do the transfer early, Monday evening say around 9 pm which would be about 56 hours in. What’s the best option in this scenario?

 

[Humblefish]

@Dodgersfan It is a hard line to never cross. If you can’t make the 72 hour deadline, transfer the fish before then. Remember:

1. Transfers need to occur every 72 hours OR less, NOT more
2. The total number of days to pass should be 12 OR more, NOT less
3. A minimum of four transfers is required, with more required if doing transfers more frequent than every 72 hours
4. Time of day of transfers does not matter, provided no more than 72 hours elapse between transfers (ignore what you think you know or have heard about mornings being required)

 

[Dodgersfan]

@Dodgersfan It is a hard line to never cross. If you can’t make the 72 hour deadline, transfer the fish before then. Remember:

1. Transfers need to occur every 72 hours OR less, NOT more
2. The total number of days to pass should be 12 OR more, NOT less
3. A minimum of four transfers is required, with more required if doing transfers more frequent than every 72 hours
4. Time of day of transfers does not matter, provided no more than 72 hours elapse between transfers (ignore what you think you know or have heard about mornings being required)

Thanks, that helps. So Its probably best to do the first transfer Monday night instead of Tuesday? Then Thursday, Sunday, and Wednesday and I’m in the clear? Wednesday is exactly 12 days, should I do a 5th transfer at the end or is it not necessary?

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks, that helps. So Its probably best to do the first transfer Monday night instead of Tuesday? Then Thursday, Sunday, and Wednesday and I’m in the clear? Wednesday is exactly 12 days, should I do a 5th transfer at the end or is it not necessary?

I would do the transfer on Monday, and also do a 5th transfer at the end.

Better safe than sorry.

 

[sensei]

Subtherapeutic copper still kills most of the parasites, just not all. So, what you get is a fish with a few trophonts still attached, but also a fish whose immune system has been exposed to the pathogen. Therefore, immunity/resistance to said pathogen begins to develop. If you were to release this fish back into the ocean (just as an example), I would be willing to bet he would be fine. His #1 enemy now is this glass box; where the trophonts will drop off, encyst and then release more free swimmers seeking to reinfect him & any fish tank mates. With each passing generation, the parasites slowly grow in number in this confined space. At first the fish's natural immune system is able to keep them at bay, but its a numbers game he will eventually lose. How long until that happens varies greatly from fish to fish.

Running a UV/diatom will filter out some of the free swimmers, buying the fish more time.

Using an herbal remedy, vitamins, garlic will reinforce the fish's natural defenses and/or boost his immune system, buying the fish more time.

But for velvet, only a chemical in the water (e.g. copper, Chloroquine) can zap the free swimmers and end/interrupt the parasite's life cycle for good.

---------------------------------------------------------

I have never tested 36 hour TTM for treating Marine Velvet Disease; it just makes sense to me that it should work based on what I know of velvet's life cycle.

----------------------------------------------------------

Using CP @ 40mg/gal for 30 days will eliminate velvet, brook, uronema and most strains of ich. The only exception would be if you happened to encounter a strain of ich that took longer than 30 days for all the theronts to be released from their tomonts. Such strains are probably rare, but who can say for sure?

@Humblefish

Thanks a lot for your explanation, things make sense now!

 

[clover128]

Deinonych Awesome to have you here! Your help in this forum would be much appreciated!

I second that. Thanks for writing this down - I never knew about this myself and it's appreciated.

 

[HairyGary]

Ok I am about to start TTM for three wrasses. I have had them in QT now for about 2.5 wks and have gone through two rounds of Prazi. No signs if ICH or Velvet.

Can you keep the two 10 gallons tanks side by side for the TTM or do they need to be separate by several feet due to possible aerosol transmission?

Thanks.

 

[Dodgersfan]

I would do the transfer on Monday, and also do a 5th transfer at the end.

Better safe than sorry.

So I've been thinking about this 12 day thing, let me know if my Math checks out here, these little buggers are tough to catch so if I can do one less transfer that would be great.

Day 0 Friday 4/20 - fish put in a bag at LA shipping facility sometime before 5PM, but we'll call it 5 since they were in transit then
Day 1 Saturday 4/21 - i drip acclimated in a bucket then netted the fish and put them in the first tank at around 2PM
Day 3 Monday 4/23 - did first transfer at 930 PM
Day 6 Thursday 4/26 - did 2nd transfer at 830 PM
Day 9 Sunday 4/29 - will do 3rd transfer at 730 PM
Day 12 Wednesday 5/2 - will do 4th transfer at 630 PM

Do i need to do a 5th transfer? the 4th transfer will be at 11 days 5 1/2 hours from when i put them in the initial tank, but there was all that "Day 0" shipping time in the bag overnight, does that time count? if So I'll be somewhere around 12 days & 1-2 hours at 630 next Wednesday. Is this cutting it too close? i'm only planning on QTing until next saturday, (i know 4 weeks is better, but this is the timetable i have and I'm willing to accept some risk, that obviously is out the window if i see any signs of disease, but if no disease they're going in the DT a week from Saturday. the last transfer on Weds the 2nd will be to the observation tank, so i guess as long as i move them to the DT before 630PM Saturday the 5th than the observation tank is technically the 5th transfer so the point is moot, but i am interested to get your take on how to could the shipping time and bucket acclimation into the overall transfer process and 12 day rule

 

[Bronx19]

Great thread. I let a butterfly in and guess what it sprouted? First time in my life having ich and never QTd anything.

So... My only question is heaters and airation. How do I do this without fear of contamination? I have air stones, but I see those are no good.

 

[Humblefish]

So... My only question is heaters and airation. How do I do this without fear of contamination? I have air stones, but I see those are no good.

I use these during TTM and then discard the air stone after each transfer: https://www.amazon.com/Lees-Pet-Products-ALE12520-Disposable/dp/B0002APU62

Buying them in bulk saves $$$: https://www.amazon.com/Lees-Discard-A-Stone-Coarse-100-Bulk/dp/B0002APU6W

 

[Bronx19]

Can you soak air stones in vinegar, or boil them to sterilize?

 

[Humblefish]

Can you soak air stones in vinegar, or boil them to sterilize?

Yes to soaking in vinegar; however I would still let it air dry thoroughly before reusing. So, have lots of them you can rotate in & out.

 

[Dodgersfan]

Yes to soaking in vinegar; however I would still let it air dry thoroughly before reusing. So, have lots of them you can rotate in & out.

this is what i do. I've got a half dozen stones. one per transfer then they all sit dry for about a month before i start another TTM

 

[dede]

So I missed the 4th transfer day, just so tired I got my days mixed up and realized too late when I was going to do it the following day. It is a diamond goby that has been in an observation tank for 2 months. He has not shown symptoms but the black molly I had in the tank with him for 2 months died right around the 2 month mark. Molly was in that tank for 6 months total and did not show any spots when it died.

Do I need to start over from the beginning at day 1 with the ttm. I put off ttm with him because I have just been so exhausted lately and did not want to deal with all the transfers.

Would you risk it and put him in dd. The thing giving me pause is the molly death.

I think if I have to start over I will just put him back in the observation tank.

 

[HairyGary]

So I missed the 4th transfer day, just so tired I got my days mixed up and realized too late when I was going to do it the following day. It is a diamond goby that has been in an observation tank for 2 months. He has not shown symptoms but the black molly I had in the tank with him for 2 months died right around the 2 month mark. Molly was in that tank for 6 months total and did not show any spots when it died.

Do I need to start over from the beginning at day 1 with the ttm. I put off ttm with him because I have just been so exhausted lately and did not want to deal with all the transfers.

Would you risk it and put him in dd. The thing giving me pause is the molly death.

I think if I have to start over I will just put him back in the observation tank.

You have to start over TTM for it to be effective. I would do so to make sure.

 

[Ahbaloch]

When making the new water, do we have to seed the filter? Or just run a new filter?


Will fish be okay in brand new water,

 

[ncaldwell]

I've always completely cleaned and dried out the filter and heater. Depending on the amount of fish, there shouldnt be enough fish to cause problems in the 3 days before a transfer. Just just dont go overboard trying to do 15 fish and you shouldnt need bacteria

 

[DaveFe]

What are peoples thoughts on TTM before vs after QT for observation? I plan on using 5 gallon buckets for TTM and a 20 gallon tank for observation, my only concern is how well I can observe the fish in a bucket if I do TTM first. Could I miss something that waiting 12 days to treat could be fatal?