Tank Transfer Method

randoma · Oct 21, 2018

So I recently put 16 fish through TTM after having an abject failure with CP. I used 2 10 gallon tanks (small fish) and 1 20 gallon tank (pair of medium sized tangs). I lost count of the actual amount of water I used, but it was a lot... At any rate, it got me thinking - would it be possible to setup two tanks... Every three days you transfer the fish, and bleach the last tank, then use Amquel or equivalent to neutralize the bleach, then move the fish back? Does that make sense? I guess that ammonia buildup might overwhelm the Amquel.

bluebowtie · Oct 21, 2018

good read

Humblefish · Oct 21, 2018

randoma said:
So I recently put 16 fish through TTM after having an abject failure with CP. I used 2 10 gallon tanks (small fish) and 1 20 gallon tank (pair of medium sized tangs). I lost count of the actual amount of water I used, but it was a lot... At any rate, it got me thinking - would it be possible to setup two tanks... Every three days you transfer the fish, and bleach the last tank, then use Amquel or equivalent to neutralize the bleach, then move the fish back? Does that make sense? I guess that ammonia buildup might overwhelm the Amquel.

That might work - but you would need to maintain at least 60ppm chlorine for 24 hours in order to eradicate all encysted ich tomonts in the tank. And I would use sodium thiosulfate to neutralize that much chlorine: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sodium-thiosulfate.442824/

randoma · Oct 21, 2018

Humblefish said:
That might work - but you would need to maintain at least 60ppm chlorine for 24 hours in order to eradicate all encysted ich tomonts in the tank. And I would use sodium thiosulfate to neutralize that much chlorine: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sodium-thiosulfate.442824/

Will the sodium thiosulfate neutralize the ammonia also? I seem to recall that testing ammonia levels after adding Amquel is unreliable - I've never been happy with the Seachem ammonia alerts. I find that they routinely give false negatives. Any thoughts on how to test A) that you actually have 60ppm and B) that the chlorine is actually neutralized?

Unless you had a massive amount of water/fish to treat, you're probably better off just changing the water - I found with 8 fish (small seahorses) I needed to do a 25-50% water change in the 10 gallon tank every 24 hours or so, in addition to the complete tank change every 72 hours because the ammonia levels exceeded what I was comfortable with. (Ultimately I just did a 48 hour split on the seahorses instead of every 72.)

randoma · Oct 21, 2018

Incidentally, and I should probably post this in the CP thread - I started CP, and lost a Clown Jester Goby and Purple Firefish in the first 24 hours. I did a 50% water change that day (planned), then another 50% the next day, then another 50% on the third day. I had 5 lyretail anthias in the system - all 5 looked fine for the first 3 days, then 3 of them died on day 3, despite appearing healthy and eating the entire time. (Yes, I know, they're not supposed to be CP compatible, but I wanted to see what would happen with a shorter dosage period - my original plan was to dose standard dosage, then do a 50% WC, wait a week to see how they held up at half dosage, then do a 30 day cycle if all went well.. Didn't go well....)

System was 3 20 gallon tanks plumbed together, with 5 female lyretails and 3 purple firefish in one tank, a powder brown tang, a sailfin tang (both tangs are roughly 2-3" long), a cleaner wrasse, a clown jester goby and a neon goby in one tank, and 8 seahorses and two mandarins in the third tank. All of the fish were in the system for 3 weeks before I started treatment and all of them were eating. Both tangs stopped eating on the second day. But started eating again on the fourth day. On the fourth day I moved all the fish to new tanks and started TTM. The cleaner wrasse died about 12 hours after the transfer and I lost another of the anthias on, if I remember correctly, the 5th or 6th day of TTM. (it was eating up to that point, but I think the other anthia was harassing it too much). All the remaining fish made it through treatment and are back in the 60 gallon system (which was bleached and dried during the TTM). Except for the seahorses, they'll all be going into a 120g display soon....

Humblefish · Oct 21, 2018

randoma said:
Will the sodium thiosulfate neutralize the ammonia also? I seem to recall that testing ammonia levels after adding Amquel is unreliable - I've never been happy with the Seachem ammonia alerts. I find that they routinely give false negatives. Any thoughts on how to test A) that you actually have 60ppm and B) that the chlorine is actually neutralized?

Sodium thiosulfate only neutralizes chlorine. You could probably add a little Amquel or Prime to take care of any leftover ammonia. But it will only bind the ammonia for 24-48 hours unless you have a working biofilter to process it out.

I use this dosing guide and aim for 100ppm chlorine just to be on the safe side: https://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/dwgwp/DW/chlorinedosageemergencydisinfection.pdf

You can use a pool test kit to be sure no chlorine remains in the water after dosing sodium thiosulfate.

HKfshkpr1 · Oct 29, 2018

I am having problem with the "observation" period.
Last time after 4 transfers I put a powder blue tang in acclamation box into the show tank( since I didn't have a biological filter). He was not harassed and ate well inside but was covered with ich the 4th day.
I removed it and did another 5 transfers using "no" med and he's clean. I also did not treat the 10 months old show tank but is it possible that it's not ich free? Thank god no other fish got infested!
Now the PBT is OK and I am observing it this time in the Q tank. I've been doing 50% water change every 2 days and adding "Prime" to detox ammonia. However, the water gets cloudy and he does not seem to appreciate it: less active and eats less. What's wrong? Could Prime cause cloudy water? A better way to observe?

Brew12 · Oct 29, 2018

HKfshkpr1 said:
I am having problem with the "observation" period.
Last time after 4 transfers I put a powder blue tang in acclamation box into the show tank( since I didn't have a biological filter). He was not harassed and ate well inside but was covered with ich the 4th day.
I removed it and did another 5 transfers using "no" med and he's clean. I also did not treat the 10 months old show tank but is it possible that it's not ich free? Thank god no other fish got infested!
Now the PBT is OK and I am observing it this time in the Q tank. I've been doing 50% water change every 2 days and adding "Prime" to detox ammonia. However, the water gets cloudy and he does not seem to appreciate it: less active and eats less. What's wrong? Could Prime cause cloudy water? A better way to observe?

The ich is in your tank. Clearing it from the PBT doesn't do any good if you plan on putting him in your display. The other fish just have an immunity to the ich so they do not show symptoms. They are still carriers.

Victoria M · Oct 29, 2018

HKfshkpr1 said:
I am having problem with the "observation" period.
Last time after 4 transfers I put a powder blue tang in acclamation box into the show tank( since I didn't have a biological filter). He was not harassed and ate well inside but was covered with ich the 4th day.
I removed it and did another 5 transfers using "no" med and he's clean. I also did not treat the 10 months old show tank but is it possible that it's not ich free? Thank god no other fish got infested!
Now the PBT is OK and I am observing it this time in the Q tank. I've been doing 50% water change every 2 days and adding "Prime" to detox ammonia. However, the water gets cloudy and he does not seem to appreciate it: less active and eats less. What's wrong? Could Prime cause cloudy water? A better way to observe?

I went thru this before I found out there was a thing called the internet to help you. Gah...awful memories. If you want to make your tank free of ich you have alot of work cut out for you. see the thread called ick management vs irradication.
herehttps://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/

Quovadis Green · Nov 25, 2018

Humblefish said:
Edit: A more detailed article covering TTM can be found here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/spars-tank-transfer-method.209690/

Tank Transfer Method: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) only.

How To Treat - Tank transfer (TTM) is probably one of the most underused and underappreciated resources in our hobby. To properly execute TTM you need two tanks (or buckets), with dedicated equipment for each tank (not to be shared between the two). I personally use 2 of the 10 gallon tanks to do TTM, each with its own heater, thermometer, air stone, airline tubing and PVC elbows for hiding places. This is how TTM is implemented:

Day 1 - Fish is placed in initial QT.

Day 4 - Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.

Day 7 - Repeat.

Day 10 - Repeat.

Day 13 - Repeat and done (fish should now be ich free).

After transferring, immediately sanitize the "old tank" and all equipment using bleach or vinegar. Rinse well. Let air dry thoroughly before next use. The air drying is the sterilization process when using vinegar, or detoxification process when using bleach.

Simply put, this process works because you are literally outrunning the parasite's known life cycle. If a fish is infected with ich, trophonts will leave the fish at some point during the TTM process, and the encysted stage doesn't have enough time to release theronts (i.e. free swimmers that re-infect the fish) before the fish exits the tank. Ammonia isn't much of a concern with TTM, because every 3 days the fish is placed in a new tank with new water; or you always have the option of using ammonia reducers, such as Amquel or Prime, in conjunction with TTM since there is no risk of negative interaction because no medications are present. However, you do have the option of dosing Prazipro (if you need to deworm) at the tail end of transfers 2 & 4 (or 1 & 3). The fish only needs 24 hours of exposure time to Prazipro, so dose 24 hours before you are set to make the next transfer. A second round of Prazipro is required 5-7 days after the first, but again dose the medication 24 hours before you are set to transfer the fish out. Just remember if you do this that you can't use any ammonia reducers while Prazi is present in the water.

One of the cons to tank transfer is the amount/cost of saltwater needed to do it. For example, using my 2-10 gallons I go through 50 gallons of saltwater before the TTM process is complete. However, a thrifty hobbyist can use water stored from a recent display tank water change to implement TTM. Obviously, this only works if you are 100% confident that your display tank is disease free and don't siphon anything off the bottom. The other problem with TTM is netting the fish every 3 days. That concern can be somewhat alleviated by using a plastic colander in lieu of a net to catch the fish (square ones work better than round ones):

Pros - Chemical free solution to ich, highly effective when performed properly, can be combined with deworming via Prazipro.

Cons/Side Effects - Cost (if using all new saltwater), time/effort expended, probably somewhat stressful on the fish being caught every 3 days, does not treat other parasites such as velvet, brook, uronema.

@Humblefish I have a question after the 14 days of the Tank Transfer Method are there any preventative medicine I can use the next 14 days that can directly target velvet or Brooke I think velvet killed my entire livestock last time and I figure I treat with something that can kill it then it won’t stand a chance to make it into display tank I mean I have ich x and copper power could I dose that as a preventative measure

JZM · Dec 8, 2018

First of all, I apologize for my low level of English, which makes it difficult for me to follow all the messages in the thread and it may be that my questions are already answered in other messages.

I have found the method very interesting, I am very new and right now I am finishing cycling my aquarium. It has been very good for me to know the TTM now since I assure myself that my main tank is free of ich. But my question is this: When I bring my new fish, I have to put them in tank-1 to start the process. In this first step I understand that previously it should be acclimated by drip and if in the last transference does not continue with the quarantine and I want to introduce the fish in the main aquarium I will have to do an acclimation again to balance parameters. Is what I propose correct? Thank you !!

chicago · Dec 8, 2018

If this works for Fish would it work for invert such as a sea hare ??

chicago · Dec 9, 2018

No one. Really.

Reefahholic · Dec 9, 2018

chicago said:
If this works for Fish would it work for invert such as a sea hare ??

A sea-hare is unlikely to carry a parasite, but you just never know. It's usually the harder animals such as snails or even coral frags. I've also had ich make it in on macro algae.

Typically, to be 100% safe...just QT everything wet. I've added things like sea-hare's and anemones in the past without any issues. Although I'm always nervous when a Ritteri is fully inflated with water from a tank I know had parasites in it. I try to let them deflate all the water before I add them. I'm really not sure if that helped, but it made me feel better anyway.

GoldeneyeRet · Dec 9, 2018

chicago said:
No one. Really.

TTM will not work with inverts.

You were given good advice here on how to QT your sea hare:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/q...r-70-days-and-or-tank-transfer-method.505324/

chicago · Dec 10, 2018

thanks .. you are correct..that was good advice..

Reefahholic · Dec 10, 2018

GoldeneyeRet said:
TTM will not work with inverts.

You were given good advice here on how to QT your sea hare:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/q...r-70-days-and-or-tank-transfer-method.505324/

It will work. Leave them in one tank and transfer on day 76. Hehe

HotRocks · Dec 10, 2018

This Sticky (Original Post) has been edited with new info. Reflecting up to date procedures and currently available products etc.

Be102 · Dec 17, 2018

I am planning on doing the TTM in a few 5 gallon buckets to treat my two clowns of ich. I then intend to go fallow for 76 days. I was wondering if I can use display tank water as the first bucket until my second transfer or I should remove my fish and use new water to begin with.