Think twice before you go big

[southerntnreefer]

Also too late, as the moment you expose / open up a grandfathered structural issue that's not up to code, it must be brought up to code. In other words, that cost was sunk the moment the floor was cut.

Renos on older homes are always a healthy dose of risk, pretty much nothing will be up to modern code standards. We had a co-worker here just experience that with some electrical work, which went from moving an outlet over a few feet to almost $15k to re-wire half the house and replacing / upgrading the service panel.

This is a big reason why ive never done a in wall tank.. House built in the late 80s, but not taking any chances.

 

[mrpizzaface]

I've been in this hobby and reading about reefkeeping for many years. I repeatedly see threads on "what would you do if you could start over?" A common answer is "I would set up a larger system." I want to push back on that.

There is so much pressure to go big and so many reasons why big tanks make sense. Many people's progressions in the hobby look like mine. I started with 10g freshwater, then 20g, then 38g reef, then 75g reef, and now planning a 240g reef (this is all over more than 25 years, so I'm not talking about impulsive upgrading behavior). Each time I wanted more stability, more aquascaping possibilities, more stocking options, and more to see. So now I'm about 18 months into *planning* a large system (see my build thread) and I'm having some regrets before I've even put any water in the tank. With larger tanks, everything gets more expensive, and I mean really expensive. Larger tank, more rock, more sand, bigger light fixture with more lights, larger wavemakers, bigger sump, bigger return pumps, more salt, more electricity, more water.

But I want to share a cautionary tale about how my dream reef tank, original budget of around $15K, is now going to cost more than a sports car. I am doing a fish room with an in-wall display, so I had to open the walls. The architect said the wall was not load-bearing -- good news! Then two weeks into construction they went "oops, we were wrong, it's holding up two levels of the house." No problem, add $2500 for some new supports added out wide to replace the one we removed for where the display tank sits. Should be fine, but let's have a structural engineer review just in case. That will only cost $500 or so. Then, as we're digging a trench in the slab for a floor drain (an absolute requirement), we got another nasty surprise. The basement slabs in my neighborhood (homes are all about 100 years old) are about 3" to 6" thick instead of 12" to 18". So we need to tear up half the basement slab, excavate, and pour new concrete footings for the tank and for the vertical beams supporting the house. Another $10K. I suppose we might have wanted a thicker slab anyway, but the house would have had at least another 50 years before it was a problem.

So I'm about to approve that change order to the construction contract, but seriously thought about whether I could sell the custom tank that's been sitting in the garage and downsize to something that won't break my house. Too late, I guess, since we already moved the supports and I've already accumulated all the equipment that goes with this particular tank. Fortunately I can absorb these costs and still pay for my kids' college and our retirement, maybe have a skip a couple of vacations. But the lesson learned (which I hope to share) is that if you are a normal person who has not been lucky to have investments go well and save for 20+ years, then try to make the most of that 20 gallon, or 55 gallon or whatever tank or even a nano, and take it as a challenge on how to create something beautiful in a small box and how to keep it stable. We need to celebrate nanos and "regular" size tanks and reef-keepers who maintain them and not feel or create pressure to upgrade. Yes, we'll always drool over the ocean-sized tanks online with armies of tangs swimming busily and peacefully over an expanse of mature coral reefs, but think twice before you go big.

I think a lot of your cost can be considered capital improvements, Perhaps there’s some hope to recover those funds should you ever sell your home.

 

[jda]

Just to state the other side, I got a FREE used 12x3x3 acrylic tank (they are nearly impossible to sell). It is in my garage waiting for a few years. I will have to polish it a bit and also redo some of the overflows. I will one day set it up on cinder blocks, build a fake half-wall around the stand, get a used 125 to 180g sump, some used MH and AmpMasters and probably some new heaters. I expect all of this to be about $1500, but I had to just take what size the tank was and do not need to have new stuff. The cost of rock and sand will be large. The day-to-day cost will be large too - this is where the real costs start to add up and are probably $10 a day if I do a reef and probably $8 a day if I just do fish.

Large tanks do not have to cost a lot to set up. Stock can cost a lot, or a little, depending on what you put in there. They do cost a lot to run.

Don't even get me started on residential structural engineers. They cannot wait to spend somebody else's money like it does not matter. We had to go through three before we found one that was just OK when trying to do a garage addition with a suspended floor and basement underneath... the first one designed a $280k system which was just stupid on all account. Finally got one to just do what the "book" says to do which was about $40k more than just pouring footings and slab... which was reasonable. I feel sorry for the few good ones that get drug down by the litany of bad ones that think that every solution is to go 10-50x more than you actually, legitimately need.

 

[SteveG_inDC]

all i have to say is, your commitment is real!

On the plus side, this tank is going to look amaze-balls when its done! All this trouble, i will be watching the build thread with all the 'obstacles' .

Thanks for the

Benn in construction for 30 years. Never heard or seen of a basement slab being 12"-18"

Maybe I misheard, but the exterminator, who drills basements for termite treatments, confirmed that our neighborhood has thinner slabs than normal.

 

[kenchilada]

Any project costs whatever you spend on it. Structural modifications aren’t required to have a large tank, unless you choose to put the tank somewhere that requires that.

Don’t be afraid of a big tank. They’re much easier to me. Just be careful not to get caught up in current fads- be practical. For example, if you find yourself pricing 16 G5 Radions, maybe you should ask if that’s really necessary.

 

[BackToTheReef]

Any project costs whatever you spend on it. Structural modifications aren’t required to have a large tank, unless you choose to put the tank somewhere that requires that.

Don’t be afraid of a big tank. They’re much easier to me. Just be careful not to get caught up in current fads- be practical. For example, if you find yourself pricing 16 G5 Radions, maybe you should ask if that’s really necessary.

Currently going through this exercise!

 

[S2G]

Biggest you can afford is what people usually say or basically living within your means.

I'm pretty frugal & have arbitrary numbers that I stay within. I could do a 240 for probably under a 1/3 of that cost. Of course it wont be new or have the latest greatest automation. The main thing with me is waterchanges so once I got my nutrient export down waterchanges are almost nothing which saves a ton with large tanks.

If you're patient you can find great deals & save a ton. Upping your diy skills will also help the cause.

 

[SteveG_inDC]

I think a lot of your cost can be considered capital improvements, Perhaps there’s some hope to recover those funds should you ever sell your home.

I wish that were true but we're taking out a closet and therefore removing a countable bedroom. If we ever sell we'd have to undo a lot of the changes. And most buyers do not pay extra for a five-foot floor drain three 20-amp circuits in a bedroom! I guess we would list the house as "reef-ready."

 

[southerntnreefer]

Biggest you can afford is what people usually say or basically living within your means.

I'm pretty frugal & have arbitrary numbers that I stay within. I could do a 240 for probably under a 1/3 of that cost. Of course it wont be new or have the latest greatest automation. The main thing with me is waterchanges so once I got my nutrient export down waterchanges are almost nothing which saves a ton with large tanks.

If you're patient you can find great deals & save a ton. Upping your diy skills will also help the cause.

That's how I got the 220. Plenty of DIY etc, however for me it was that monthly cost from heating and cooling the tank and dehumidifing the area.

 

[jtf74]

I've been in this hobby and reading about reefkeeping for many years. I repeatedly see threads on "what would you do if you could start over?" A common answer is "I would set up a larger system." I want to push back on that.

There is so much pressure to go big and so many reasons why big tanks make sense. Many people's progressions in the hobby look like mine. I started with 10g freshwater, then 20g, then 38g reef, then 75g reef, and now planning a 240g reef (this is all over more than 25 years, so I'm not talking about impulsive upgrading behavior). Each time I wanted more stability, more aquascaping possibilities, more stocking options, and more to see. So now I'm about 18 months into *planning* a large system (see my build thread) and I'm having some regrets before I've even put any water in the tank. With larger tanks, everything gets more expensive, and I mean really expensive. Larger tank, more rock, more sand, bigger light fixture with more lights, larger wavemakers, bigger sump, bigger return pumps, more salt, more electricity, more water.

But I want to share a cautionary tale about how my dream reef tank, original budget of around $15K, is now going to cost more than a sports car. I am doing a fish room with an in-wall display, so I had to open the walls. The architect said the wall was not load-bearing -- good news! Then two weeks into construction they went "oops, we were wrong, it's holding up two levels of the house." No problem, add $2500 for some new supports added out wide to replace the one we removed for where the display tank sits. Should be fine, but let's have a structural engineer review just in case. That will only cost $500 or so. Then, as we're digging a trench in the slab for a floor drain (an absolute requirement), we got another nasty surprise. The basement slabs in my neighborhood (homes are all about 100 years old) are about 3" to 6" thick instead of 12" to 18". So we need to tear up half the basement slab, excavate, and pour new concrete footings for the tank and for the vertical beams supporting the house. Another $10K. I suppose we might have wanted a thicker slab anyway, but the house would have had at least another 50 years before it was a problem.

So I'm about to approve that change order to the construction contract, but seriously thought about whether I could sell the custom tank that's been sitting in the garage and downsize to something that won't break my house. Too late, I guess, since we already moved the supports and I've already accumulated all the equipment that goes with this particular tank. Fortunately I can absorb these costs and still pay for my kids' college and our retirement, maybe have a skip a couple of vacations. But the lesson learned (which I hope to share) is that if you are a normal person who has not been lucky to have investments go well and save for 20+ years, then try to make the most of that 20 gallon, or 55 gallon or whatever tank or even a nano, and take it as a challenge on how to create something beautiful in a small box and how to keep it stable. We need to celebrate nanos and "regular" size tanks and reef-keepers who maintain them and not feel or create pressure to upgrade. Yes, we'll always drool over the ocean-sized tanks online with armies of tangs swimming busily and peacefully over an expanse of mature coral reefs, but think twice before you go big.

Sounds like the problem is not the large tank but your engineering/architect. Slabs don't need to be any thicker than 3-6" only footings under walls and columns are that thick. Concrete strength is usually 3500 psi. I've got 300 gallons on my 4" thick basement slab no problem. You could park a MAC truck on a 6" slab.

 

[blasterman]

I've insisted for years the biggest mistake new reefers make is get too big a tank

I miss my old 125 gal and its near instant success for SPS. However, my current 20L costs a fraction the upkeep and other than Acropora grows anything I could in my bigger tank.

If you can't succeed with a 20L or standard 30 you won't have better luck with a 125.

 

[brandon clow]

I wish that were true but we're taking out a closet and therefore removing a countable bedroom. If we ever sell we'd have to undo a lot of the changes. And most buyers do not pay extra for a five-foot floor drain three 20-amp circuits in a bedroom! I guess we would list the house as "reef-ready."

That would be a nice filter for zillow! I know I would definitely burn some time looking through homes.

 

[stanlalee]

6ft 150 reef is about my limit. Anything beyond that becomes prohibitively complex, expensive or tedious. For example either manual water changes which become tedious or auto water changes which replaces tedious with complex or expensive with water pipes in the right place and plumbing etc. These are not issues in a tank that only requires a 5-10g water change vs 40g water changes. Same goes for calcium/alkalinity. Manual tedious/expensive (when your dosing 50+ml a day), dosing pumps add expense and are tedious because they have to be monitored for function, calibrated and ideally synchronized/staggered from each other to prevent precipitation. with calcium reactor now I have to add a co2 cylinder and more complexity for automation . In a 30g two 500ml bottles of part A/B, 30 seconds of your life per day and your done.

 

[ImaFlippinDolphin]

Dang, sorry to hear that SteveG_inDC I was watching your build thread on wamas but don't spend a ton of time there as there isn't much activity. Very well thought out and planned build, best of luck compadre

 

[JoshH]

I wish that were true but we're taking out a closet and therefore removing a countable bedroom. If we ever sell we'd have to undo a lot of the changes. And most buyers do not pay extra for a five-foot floor drain three 20-amp circuits in a bedroom! I guess we would list the house as "reef-ready."

When we sell our house I'll try and pitch the sump room as a great spot to do hydroponics and grow your own vegetables. Water plumbed in, drains, 20 amp circuits for lighting ventilation for humidity. Perfect spot for growing vegtables or other things if one chooses Might not work with your setup though

 

[AlexG]

I always try to work with the space I have in my home due to the issues that can come up once an architect and engineer get involved. Another reason my new aquariums will be going onto the basement floor with a stand designed to distribute the weight of the tank over a larger area. I hope that you get through these challenges and get the aquarium project back on track.

 

[User1]

It is so very true. Larger tanks offer a lot but often over looked unless treated like a major kitchen or bathroom remodel which is what you hinted at. Tanks be it over the counter, semi custom, and custom are affordable. As you pointed out it is behind the scene that trouble is brewing. More water. More salt. Larger pumps. Better water circulation. Substrate or not. Rock. Storage of water. Water production. Dosing. List goes on and on.

I owned a 100 gallon years ago. Downsized to a 20 gallon, then 29 gallon bio cube, then 40 breeder. I recently went with another upgrade to a 210 gallon and when I went to make my initial water for the display I was short salt. I was so accustomed to making lower amounts of water and having only 1 or 2 bags of salt I was so short it wasn't even funny. I was like duh but it escaped me.

In our case we hit another snag as I was always going to use live rock from TBS. 210 gallons is a lot to fill at least in my mind / vision of the display. Had to look hard on it twice if not more because I had two in college at the time. Ended up saying while I would love to and it was the right choice I ended up going with dry pukani instead. Those trade offs are what causes side effects later.

 

[sas226]

I've been in this hobby and reading about reefkeeping for many years. I repeatedly see threads on "what would you do if you could start over?" A common answer is "I would set up a larger system." I want to push back on that.

There is so much pressure to go big and so many reasons why big tanks make sense. Many people's progressions in the hobby look like mine. I started with 10g freshwater, then 20g, then 38g reef, then 75g reef, and now planning a 240g reef (this is all over more than 25 years, so I'm not talking about impulsive upgrading behavior). Each time I wanted more stability, more aquascaping possibilities, more stocking options, and more to see. So now I'm about 18 months into *planning* a large system (see my build thread) and I'm having some regrets before I've even put any water in the tank. With larger tanks, everything gets more expensive, and I mean really expensive. Larger tank, more rock, more sand, bigger light fixture with more lights, larger wavemakers, bigger sump, bigger return pumps, more salt, more electricity, more water.

But I want to share a cautionary tale about how my dream reef tank, original budget of around $15K, is now going to cost more than a sports car. I am doing a fish room with an in-wall display, so I had to open the walls. The architect said the wall was not load-bearing -- good news! Then two weeks into construction they went "oops, we were wrong, it's holding up two levels of the house." No problem, add $2500 for some new supports added out wide to replace the one we removed for where the display tank sits. Should be fine, but let's have a structural engineer review just in case. That will only cost $500 or so. Then, as we're digging a trench in the slab for a floor drain (an absolute requirement), we got another nasty surprise. The basement slabs in my neighborhood (homes are all about 100 years old) are about 3" to 6" thick instead of 12" to 18". So we need to tear up half the basement slab, excavate, and pour new concrete footings for the tank and for the vertical beams supporting the house. Another $10K. I suppose we might have wanted a thicker slab anyway, but the house would have had at least another 50 years before it was a problem.

So I'm about to approve that change order to the construction contract, but seriously thought about whether I could sell the custom tank that's been sitting in the garage and downsize to something that won't break my house. Too late, I guess, since we already moved the supports and I've already accumulated all the equipment that goes with this particular tank. Fortunately I can absorb these costs and still pay for my kids' college and our retirement, maybe have a skip a couple of vacations. But the lesson learned (which I hope to share) is that if you are a normal person who has not been lucky to have investments go well and save for 20+ years, then try to make the most of that 20 gallon, or 55 gallon or whatever tank or even a nano, and take it as a challenge on how to create something beautiful in a small box and how to keep it stable. We need to celebrate nanos and "regular" size tanks and reef-keepers who maintain them and not feel or create pressure to upgrade. Yes, we'll always drool over the ocean-sized tanks online with armies of tangs swimming busily and peacefully over an expanse of mature coral reefs, but think twice before you go big.

Most people won't have tanks as big as yours and wont have to tear up half their house to have it. I understand what your saying but your pushback uses an extreme example of why sometimes it can get rough. The equipment costs etc? Sure, I agree with you 100%.. but using home improvements for a massive tank is just something most people wouldn't do or at the very least would look into extensively before committing. Not trying to know you, just saying it's the exception not the rule in my opinion.

 

[kenchilada]

Surprised how many people find water changes such a big obstacle. Don’t get a planted tank then... I was doing Barr method and changed 45G weekly on my 90G.

And cost? Even if I change 30% monthly in my 215G and use Brightwell, that’s ~$350 a year in salt. Sure it all adds up but I have buddies with worse hobbies... ever see what a boat costs? Restoring cars? Pinball?

 

[User1]

Surprised how many people find water changes such a big obstacle. Don’t get a planted tank then... I was doing Barr method and changed 45G weekly on my 90G.

And cost? Even if I change 30% monthly in my 215G and use Brightwell, that’s ~$350 a year in salt. Sure it all adds up but I have buddies with worse hobbies... ever see what a boat costs? Restoring cars? Pinball?

I can't speak for others but water changes is more about production of water, storage, ease of water change, etc. Changing 10 gallons is ok and a bucket or two - your done. Changing 100 gallons is another story. So I think that is what most "maybe" referring to. At least that is in my reply.

True on boating. Always wanted a sail boat but never did for many reasons. Cars - HPED track here and as my wife always told me. Didn't care about the hobby but needed to be able to walk away should I do something stupid, bad luck, mechanical failure, or others. Both physically and financially. So for the weekends I'd take the car out I'd always have track insurance. Always surprised me those that didn't.

Anyway yeah - why are hobbies expensive, right???