Time to stop venting: how do we (as hobbyists) ACTUALLY influence equipment manufacturers to improve product quality?

[Tony Thompson]

I see both sides of the fence as retailer, Personally I prefer to sell products that have a good warranty, that way I know my customers can get the support they need. After all if a product fails, its myself who the customer first contacts.

However you are not being forced to purchase a product and the warranty period should be clearly defined for every product. The price should also be clearly marked.

If you are not happy with either the price or warranty, then don't buy, but please don't blame the manufacturer. They don't hide these facts from you so when you purchase their product you accept the conditions of sale.

No one in the Marine Aquarium industry, including LFS are going to become billionaires at your expense. If anyone wanted to follow a sound business model they would stay well clear of such a niche market that in my opinion is already saturated with products.

As @Thales pointed out. IMO aquarists should be grateful that so many manufactures and individuals such as your LFS dedicate there time and effort to support the Marine Aquarium Hobby. IME the majority of these individuals are themselves hobbyists just like you.

 

[jda]

Besides heater, which usually only last for 3-5 years for me, every piece of necessary equipment has a choice with a decade long track record for reliability, and they are not expensive. While I do agree that most of the warranties on the tech stuff are short and stupid, If you choose otherwise, then some of this is on you. Askoll block pump for return, PanWorld, Iwaki or AmpMaster pumps for high movement or head, Ranco to keep an eye on the heaters, Tunze skimmer and flow pumps, LifeReef skimmers, Korallin or any CaRx with Eheim pump, T5 or MH lighting... all will last well beyond a warranty period with proven track records... and they can be fixed by a normal hobbyist with usually cheap components if they fail... impeller or resistor/starter for less than $20-25, sometimes a ballast for a bit more, but still fixable.

Too many people want to buy cool stuff with computers or microchips in them and then whine when they don't last. People want their cake and to eat it too... doesn't work like that - it never has and probably never will. Maybe they should come up with leases for equipment like an Audi, Porsche or BMW - you lease it, then you get new stuff before it breaks, or if it does break, then they fix it or replace it. Since people don't know to do math when leasing cars, aquarium hobbyists probably don't know how either, so there is probably some profit to be made here. $90 a month for a Radion lease and you get new unit every year... but you only get 3500 hours of run time or you pay .49 cents an hour beyond and they cannot show any signs of damage. My point is that the ultimate driving machine is also the ultimate breakdown machine (I have had 3x 750li, so ask me how I know), but it seems that more people know this going into a car than a piece of aquarium equipment... and why would BWM make an actually reliable car since people still buy and lease them like crazy?

My apologies if I posted any of this before in this thread... but, I see three choices:

1. Vote with your wallet
2. Make better choices if you want longevity, or
3. Stop whining and shut up

 

[Joe Rice]

Reeflo Dart pump= quietest pump ever made by man, within 2 weeks leaks around the shaft seals.

All of them?

 

[Weasel1960]

For starters there is plenty of profit on everything we buy otherwise companies wouldn’t be able to stay in business.

It really doesn’t matter whether it is equipment for our hobby, the car or bike you drive, the materials that build our homes, etc. If the product doesn’t perform you state your case, now days in public forums like this, and then don’t continue to support that company. Sooner or later it will be noticed that profits are down and things will then swing in a better direction.

Being new to the hobby I am watching things being said about all kinds of equipment for this hobby. And as someone who doesn’t yet have any brand loyalty bias I am seeing more positive comments on less expensive equipment here on R2R, YouTube, etc. You can also tell a lot about products when folks talk about their customer service experience.

Last comment...Cost does not always mean quality, sometimes it might just be better packaging. A Cadillac has finer interiors, better suspension, etc. but strip it down to the guts that make it work and it is still a GM car.

 

[HuneyBear]

I don't think i've ever seen a warranty on ANY electronic device or component over 1 year let alone 3. most (consumer) level hobby level products of any kind not just reef have a warranty of about 90 days. and this is stuff not designed to get wet. granted most of these will last much longer than that, but they are not usually in a harsh environment.

higher priced manufactures' do take into account their products are used in a wet environment and apply a generous layer of conformal coatings. electronic components can and do fail no matter what environment they are in. companies are in business to make money not loos it. the warranty is kind of a compromise between the company and the buyer, that the buyer is getting a product that will last a reasonable amount of time, and that the company can still make a profit off its products.


as said above if you don't or won't say a company has a problem with there products, HOW ARE THEY GOING TO KNOW THAT THEY HAVE A COMMON PROBLEM THAT COULD BE FIXED? Look at auto recalls for example, do you think they would recall there stuff if people didn't complain? if a product has a one year warranty and 75% are failing at 6 months the company should know about this. if on the other hand 95% are still going 1.5 years then there's no problem.



the passive components (resistors, capacitors, diodes, transformers) almost never fail. it's the other sensitive electronic components (i.c. chips, voltage regulators) that usually fail. replacing components that rarely fail with with higher cost options only adds to the cost of a product without adding enough longevity too the product to make it worth while. most people will have already upgraded their light by the time something like a capacitor will likely fail.

There are some reef products out there with a great warranty. Abyzz is 10 yrs warranty. but you are gonna pay a premium for that. A big premium. But many people will fall in to the same category I do of,”I want one of those so bad!” But financially that’s a heck of a swing for a pump that I could literally buy 10-12 Jebao pumps or middle ground pumps I could buy 5 for that much.

I have made the statement that’s been expressed as the point of this thread topic many times and it’s always resulted in a brand fan jumping in and defending till blue. There is so much improvement needed with products in this hobby that is 110% feesable. But it is still classified as a Niche market. We are forever on the lookout for that DeLorean product. The thing that should last forever. But just like the cars it creates the dilemma. Do you really want something that will last forever? Does the manufacturer really want to make something they can only sell you once? How much do you sell it for because you only have one sale per person for a limited amount of customers. Saltwater is caustic and people put these things in what can only be said truthfully, people will put these electronics in this hobby in the “dumbest”of locations. Hell I’ve been guilty of it myself. “Oh it’s only temporary”..four months later it’s dead. We as consumers of these products have responsibilities to care for these items in a legitimate manner just as much as the makers of them have to make them at least semi-prepared for the environment. We shouldn’t have to buy a complete spare of a controller that’s the heart of our system because a fish jumped out of our tank and flipped around and got a droplet into the brain. But at the same time that brain really shouldn’t be so close to be getting wet. I like the idea of honest reviews good and bad alike but it always turns into mine works fine so you are doing it wrong. But, you seeing what happened to mine and ,wow there are hundreds of the same just like it. Should set off some bells to someone that there might be a real issue. Is it really that bad for people who have had negative experiences to share what happened? You’ve had an issue and am frustrated and it’s often expensive and are looking for some peer sympathy.
There are thousands of positive reviews on here daily. You just have to read between the lines a bit. Someone asking how to use/do anything and having 20 responses of how to do/use it. That’s a positive review. Unless every response to every question is throw it out it’s junk to every thread and from every member who looked at it. I could go on with this but I won’t.

 

[Joe Rice]

Personally I don't find "I bought an Acme geframastat and two weeks later it broke" all that informative without knowing how many Acme geframastats are out there and working just fine.

More useful might be to know ALL the equipment that someone uses (or has used in the past) and whether there were any problems or not. Just for yucks, I decided to write up such a list for my tank. I bolded any problems that I had.

• Ecotech Vectra M return pump - first one failed after less than a year. Ecotech replaced for free and second one has been running flawlessly for 3½ years
• Apex controller (2016 model) - 4 years; solid other than one time when something burped and scrambled all its programming. Had I been on vacation, this could have been a tank killer.
• Apex WAV pumps - 3 years; first one (early version) failed around 6 months. Neptune replaced but it was a pain to have to run through all the steps necessary to get them to do that. Still, bought a second one and they've been running perfectly for 3 years now.
• Neptune Trident - 1 year; works fine but was throwing errors for a few weeks for a short period early on.
• Finnex heaters (no controller) - 5 years, no problems. Controlled by Apex
• AI Hydra 26HD lights - 4 years; set of three, no problems
• BuildMyLed light strips - 5 years; one works fine, one half works (just one channel). Company no longer in the reef light business
• Bulk Reef Supply single head 1.1ml/min dosers - 5 years, no problems
• Skimz recirculating skimmer - 5 years, working fine but had to replace pump once
• ZetLight fuge light - 2 years, no problems
• Tunze submersible fuge light - 1½ years, no problems

Of the 5 product failures, 2 (the Vectra and the WAV pumps) seemed to have been "early adopter" problems that were corrected in later versions. I read as much on the forums here about both products. BuildMyLed left the business and it seems that BRS has dropped Skimz so that could be the market speaking.

 

[Aaronhome27]

Best way is to stop support for sites like this that, support pay for play. The more they pay the more this site blocks negative content. So there is limited actual legit feedback

 

[jda]

Just be fair, I have never had one of my negative comments removed or edited about any product, that I know of... an no complaints, sponsor, or not. However, I do try and offer enough details about both the experience and my expectations to give a reader a good idea of what I mean.

I think that most people who have been around know that I don't use EcoTech products because I don't like how short lived they are, ReeFlo/Sequence pumps because I have NEVER had one last beyond 2 years without a seal or bearing failure or just catching fire (seriously), InkBird temp controllers for being unreliable and fading over time, any DC pump other than Abyzz or RedDragon for being throw away trash without longevity and any Jebao/Jecod product for stealing US and EU patents, AquaMedic stuff because they discontinue everything that I like (and they have/had some really nice products). There are more.

I have seen others have this happen, but since the posts are removed, hard to tell if they were honest and fair, or just whiny. I do find it actually quite ironic that the same reasons why people hated RC are starting to apply here too... I guess that it is all the same when a bunch of money and stuff is involved.

 

[Spazizz]

Good time to go back more simple products like T5 or MH or regular powerheads. Keep it simple, there’s less failing points on these things. You get less control and less customization but you can still have a great reef tank with out companies hurting your wallet because you bought a $1000 light or $300 wave maker that failed at 2-3 years. We’re quite spoiled with all control, customization and flashy effects but they simply aren’t necessary.

 

[Deep]

No one in the Marine Aquarium industry, including LFS are going to become billionaires at your expense. If anyone wanted to follow a sound business model they would stay well clear of such a niche market that in my opinion is already saturated with products.

That does not sound very true.

Pet industry surveys have estimated the aquarium industry worth over $1,000 million USD (e.g., Cato and Brown 2003; AAPMA 2005)..

The trade at retail level is worth more than US$10 billion with an average annual growth of over 10%, while the entire industry including plants, accessories, aquarium, feed, and drugs is estimated to be worth more than US$18-20 billion

https://www.bassleer.com/ornamentalfishexporters/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/12/GLOBAL-TRADE-IN-ORNAMENTAL-FISH.pdf

 

[Tony Thompson]

That does not sound very true.

Pet industry surveys have estimated the aquarium industry worth over $1,000 million USD (e.g., Cato and Brown 2003; AAPMA 2005)..

The trade at retail level is worth more than US$10 billion with an average annual growth of over 10%, while the entire industry including plants, accessories, aquarium, feed, and drugs is estimated to be worth more than US$18-20 billion

https://www.bassleer.com/ornamentalfishexporters/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/12/GLOBAL-TRADE-IN-ORNAMENTAL-FISH.pdf

Sounds like you should set up business in this industry then, seems as its such a certain money maker.

I will definitely be contacting an investment firm to see about floating my shop on the stock exchange, those figures should do the trick.

 

[WVNed]

With RC cars if someone comes up with a popular model except it has parts that break there is an aftermarket where companies make the same part of higher quality or with different materials that doesn't.

Then you can run the car you like and it doesn't break or if it does you can fix it.

I would think Vortech wetsides would be an excellent target item for this.

Generic DC pump controllers with standardized connectors to attach to any DC pump. Power supplies is another item easily standardized.

 

[Deep]

Sounds like you should set up business in this industry then, seems as its such a certain money maker.

I will definitely be contacting an investment firm to see about floating my shop on the stock exchange, those figures should do the trick.

okay sure, will agree with you then. The industry must be doing us a favor by launching their products.

 

[ClownWrangler]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160612-heres-the-truth-about-the-planned-obsolescence-of-tech

I'm an experience military aircraft technician and about to graduate with a mechanical engineering degree. I can tell you from my perspective that engineered/planned failure is real, not just a conspiracy theory. However I don’t think that its always the case when people think it is. Sometimes it’s just poor engineering and design. With LED lighting for instance, I have noticed that parts of the industry still do not have a solid grip on thermal management and heat transfer, which leads to premature failure of SMD LEDs. This is not the case on some higher end brands, but there are plenty of “low end” lighting options that could be made to be just as reliable with minor modifications to cooling such as the addition of forced convection.

 

[TaylorPilot]

Friends don't let friends buy hobby grade DC pumps. But seriously, to design and build a motor and driver that has a 100% duty cycle in and around saltwater and last a decade plus, will cost more than 99% of people are willing to pay. I have a panworld pump that is over 20 years old and still runs today. Although it is so loud, that if I tried to use it in the house, my wife would divorce me. Cheap Chinese consumer grade motors, fans, PCBs etc, aren't designed to be operated in this environment 100% of the time and last. Also, there isn't enough production scale to invest to make a run of a million of something at reasonable cost, because you'd be stuck with 950,000 of them. Abyzz has done the work to design a quality product that will last, but you have to pay for it.

Cheap, Reliable, Quiet...Pick two...

 

[sunken3]

Fellow reefers,

I have seen countless posts from fellow hobbyists venting about gear with embarrassingly short warranties failing just outside of the warranty period, in spite of what is obviously extraordinary gross margins given the component quality that goes into most reefing gear. I just had another very expensive device fail this past weekend, produced by a major manufacturer that is a sponsor of this site (it isn't appropriate to call out one manufacturer, as this is an industry-wide problem).

Upon calling for support, the customer care agent even commented about which component "likely" failed as it is what most commonly fails in this timeframe. I fail to see how that is acceptable for a device that cost nearly $1,000 with a pitiful 1 year warranty.

Rather than continue to simply vent in countless duplicative threads, is there anything that the thousands of members on this site can do to influence manufacturers? I'm not proposing anything drastic such as a boycott of a certain brand or set of brands, as that only harms folks that depend on our addictions to reefing to support their families - and won't solve the problem. My question is how do we influence positive change by reefing gear manufacturers?

I would welcome a reply from any of the product leaders or executives (either a reply to this post with suggestions or a private message) that is willing to acknowledge that it would benefit not only hobbyists, but also the small subset of businesses willing to align component quality, warranty terms, and customer care with their pricing. If any other consumer product brand (name your favorite mobile device, TV, or automotive manufacturer) were to have the quality issues we see in this market, they wouldn't last. For some reason, we, as hobbyists, continue to tolerate wasting our money on poorly manufactured devices that manufacturers themselves won't stand behind.

Candidly, as a product executive at a B2B technology company, I would welcome feedback from such a captive and loyal audience. I hope that our peers (and fellow reefers themselves) at the companies we depend on will be willing to hear and reply to our feedback.

Happy Holidays,
-Patrick

in full disclosure, I did not read all the posts (too many for my limited attention span). there are a lot of options here, but many are just too much work for us hobbyists..

• boycotting would likely be the best way to immediately get results, but this would only work with a large aligned effort, and lets be realistic - we are hobbyists.
• complaining in forums, it sucks... no one likes to hear it... but sometimes the companies are listening - but again negative feedback sucks.
• talking to retailers - eg. i watch videos from BRS where they specifically state they reach out to manufactures and try to get things changed (or they do it themselves)... they have also have been unable to change some things - so if they can't how can we?
• and really - the best way??? go make it right yourself and sell it to us hobbyists! the market on some things are crazy.. .

eg. neptune has every few real competitors to their apex. its not rocket science, its just the market is so niche and the product is costly so few want to enter and compete (no knock on neptune.. i have a ton of their product).

and for all those sticking up for the sellers not having a ton of margin??? protein skimmers?? $1,000+ for a round piece of plastic that makes bubbles??????

 

[TaylorPilot]

in full disclosure, I did not read all the posts (too many for my limited attention span). there are a lot of options here, but many are just too much work for us hobbyists..

• boycotting would likely be the best way to immediately get results, but this would only work with a large aligned effort, and lets be realistic - we are hobbyists.
• complaining in forums, it sucks... no one likes to hear it... but sometimes the companies are listening - but again negative feedback sucks.
• talking to retailers - eg. i watch videos from BRS where they specifically state they reach out to manufactures and try to get things changed (or they do it themselves)... they have also have been unable to change some things - so if they can't how can we?
• and really - the best way??? go make it right yourself and sell it to us hobbyists! the market on some things are crazy.. .

eg. neptune has every few real competitors to their apex. its not rocket science, its just the market is so niche and the product is costly so few want to enter and compete (no knock on neptune.. i have a ton of their product).

and for all those sticking up for the sellers not having a ton of margin??? protein skimmers?? $1,000+ for a round piece of plastic that makes bubbles??????

You know why BRS can't get them to change their designs? Because people are still buying the stuff...The only way for people to get them to change is for hobbyist to stop being crappy consumers...Quit buying shinny gimmicky stuff that has a shelf life of 13 weeks...companies like Lifereef that build skimmers that last 20 years should have people around the block kicking his door in. Instead people buy made in china junk that breaks every 16 month. They will make a giant run of something that looks shiny but doesn't perform, have a ton of warranty claims, then go out of business (Skimz) or get bought out by coralvue. Skimmers with intakes on both sides...dual needle wheel...because that is the problem with skimmers...they need MORE air...

 

[Reef Breeders]

I stopped buying from Reefbreeders because my lights spent more time on a UPS truck going back to Ct. for repairs then they did hanging over my tank. JUNK!

We're sorry to hear about your experience with your Photon V1s. To add some context, the quoted reply is referring to V1 lights purchased in 2014. While we did conduct repairs a few times, most repairs were about 12 months apart, so this is an exaggeration. Many of our V1 customers have lights up and running 10 years onwards with no repairs, so this is certainly not typical. The vast majority of driver issues tend to stem from lack of maintenance- ie salt and dust buildup.

In addition, the V2 platform released in 2016 doesn't share a single part with that model.