To start over, or not to start over?

[LunaSky]

I guess the title is a little over exaggerated. But... I am at my wits end and am clearly unhappy with my reef. It was great for over a year until I moved two months ago and I don't know if there is something in the water where I moved but my tank looks really, really bad and everything is dying. I bought new snails a few days ago hoping to replace the eco system that died when I moved, hoping that would also clean up the algae issues that are now sufficating every coral. But I'm pretty sure they're dead because they haven't moved a single inch since I placed them in. So, here's what I'd like to do and would like some advice on how to tackle this.

I want to keep all live stock, so, in the meantime, they will be place to in two seperate "hospital" tanks (one 10 gallon, the other a 20 gallon) for about a month while my display goes through a new cycle.

I want to clean EVERYTHING. I'll take the sump apart and clean everything out. I'll pull the piping apart and give it a good scrub. Clean all 5 sides of the display tank. Basically, I'm hoping the tank and sump and all the equipment will look as if I'd just brought them home.

I'm getting a new RO/DI system that's a 5 stage instead of the 4 stage I have now. Even though the TDS reading is 0 with the 4 stage, I think there is something getting through feeding the growth of diatoms, cyano, and algae.

The other thing is throwing out all rocks. I started with Marco rock when I set up this tank and I'd like to purchase all new rock that's live. The marco rock that is in there now are disgusting and the effort to scrub all the red and green gunk off of them is just not worth it to me. They just started growing coraline before I moved After the move and despite seeding it with coraline rubble, it died and never came back, being replaced by cyano, diatoms, and gross, dirt like sludgy looking algae. Also, If I use live rock, how long will I have to cycle the tank?

And then, do I wash the sand or get new sand? It would be easier for me to get new sand. Especially since the sand I got just blows around the tank since it's so fine. Putting a powerhead near it is impossible, basically causing the whole sand bed to become a dead spot. If I buy new sand, do I get fine, live sand, or crushed coral, or a mixture of both?

Another question I have is should I clean the tank with Vinegar? I've done that with past tanks, however, they were freshwater.

Also, if I think there is something wrong with the water, should I keep the rubble I have in my sump that would house a good portion of the bacteria that feeds the tank? If I truly want to start over with the live rock being the place I get the beneficial bacteria, should I even bother saving the rubble in the sump?

I live on the west coast of Canada. Would it be beneficial to head to the ocean and grab 20 gallons of fresh seawater and also help seed the tank?

If there is any other advice, I'll take it. I need to do something. Everything keeps dying making the problem worse. I don't see how I have any other options.

 

[Red_Beard]

That really stinks, sorry to hear about your tank woes! How old of a tank is it? Could be that your move caused another mini-cycle.

I think in your case it may be beneficial to send a sample of your water out for ICP testing. If you go the ATI route, they will also test your RO water. That should let you know for sure what is in your RO. Marco rock is great, but it does take a long time to stabilize and really become ‘live’. That is going to be a big task that may or may not pay out to replace it all.

If you do go through with changing out your rock, it would also be a good time to change out your sand, i have been very much happy with tropic eden sand, meso flakes and reef flakes. If you go the real live ocean rock route, it does not need to cycle. It is ready to go. The rubble in your sump is not likely an issue, unless you find heavy metals in your RO. You can for sure use vinegar or citric acid to clean the glass. For stubborn hard water spots, barkeeper’s friend works well too.

Not sure on the real ocean water, my feelings there are mixed. There is a potential for coastal waters to have some sort of contaminants from being close to people, but i know some here that have used real ocean water with great success. The point is moot for me though, landlocked and about as far from an ocean as you can get in the states, it is only a pipe dream for me.

 

[LunaSky]

That really stinks, sorry to hear about your tank woes! How old of a tank is it? Could be that your move caused another mini-cycle.

I think in your case it may be beneficial to send a sample of your water out for ICP testing. If you go the ATI route, they will also test your RO water. That should let you know for sure what is in your RO. Marco rock is great, but it does take a long time to stabilize and really become ‘live’. That is going to be a big task that may or may not pay out to replace it all.

If you do go through with changing out your rock, it would also be a good time to change out your sand, i have been very much happy with tropic eden sand, meso flakes and reef flakes. If you go the real live ocean rock route, it does not need to cycle. It is ready to go. The rubble in your sump is not likely an issue, unless you find heavy metals in your RO. You can for sure use vinegar or citric acid to clean the glass. For stubborn hard water spots, barkeeper’s friend works well too.

Not sure on the real ocean water, my feelings there are mixed. There is a potential for coastal waters to have some sort of contaminants from being close to people, but i know some here that have used real ocean water with great success. The point is moot for me though, landlocked and about as far from an ocean as you can get in the states, it is only a pipe dream for me.

I thought of ICP testing too and it's definitely something I'm going to invest in... but I worry it would take too long. Not only do I have to order the ICP test online which will take a week or more to get to me--I'm not sure where you are from--but we're going through a Canada Post strike right now. I doubt I'd get results fast enough to save what I have left.

The tank was set up... goodness... February 2024 I think. I had a 36 gallon set up in 2023 that experienced a Velvet Outbreak like 6 months in. I scrapped that whole thing, but using the rocks and sand from that setup I bought a new 90 gallon with sump included. I let it cycle until June 2024 or or something like that to make sure there was no velvet left on the rocks or coral. I did have some issues after adding fish... you know, typical diatoms and hair algae. But once I got the hair algae under control and sifted my sand with every water change, things finally became stable. Coraline was just staring to grow in tiny spots... then I moved.

I really do want that purple rock. I'm on the fence with Ocean water too... I've heard more good things than bad but I worry my costal waters here in Canada wouldn't do well with coral from Australia (as an example). I'll just scrap that idea. I really do think having that extra sediment filter on my RO will help. And if it doesn't, I'll have that ICP test by then to test the water.

I can't get Tropic Eden where I'm from. Not even Amazon has it. But I'll do some research on the ones you suggested and compare them to what I can get here.

Thank you for help.

 

[Red_Beard]

Dang, so rock has been wet for 2 or so years? 2 months could very well be still in the middle of a mini cycle triggered by your move. What does your nutrient testing look like, nitrates and phosphates? You have some of each but not extreme levels? And not lopsided one high one low right? That can cause some wierd stuff.

I am in the deserts of north eastern utah. I had no idea your post was on strike, that does complicate things substantially with shipping times. May not hurt to get that going, the soo er the better if it is going to take longer for results.
I don't think an extra sediment filter will be a magic bullet, unless you have tones of sediment and the one is getting plugged up. Maybe look at doing an extra di stage, maybe a dedicated cation and anion followed buy mixed bed. Hard to say which (cation or anion) will be more helpful without knowing what it is that needs to be removed. Just to double check, your municipality doses not use chloramines do they? That would be another carbon/specific kind of carbon filter that would be best to add instead of di.

If you are still going to rip it all and add real ocean rock, it still wouldnt be a bad idea to know what is in your RO water so it doesnt just become a problem in the future, if that is indeed what is at issue here. For sand, how about nature's ocean samoa pink #1? That is another good sand.

 

[LunaSky]

Dang, so rock has been wet for 2 or so years? 2 months could very well be still in the middle of a mini cycle triggered by your move. What does your nutrient testing look like, nitrates and phosphates? You have some of each but not extreme levels? And not lopsided one high one low right? That can cause some wierd stuff.

I am in the deserts of north eastern utah. I had no idea your post was on strike, that does complicate things substantially with shipping times. May not hurt to get that going, the soo er the better if it is going to take longer for results.
I don't think an extra sediment filter will be a magic bullet, unless you have tones of sediment and the one is getting plugged up. Maybe look at doing an extra di stage, maybe a dedicated cation and anion followed buy mixed bed. Hard to say which (cation or anion) will be more helpful without knowing what it is that needs to be removed. Just to double check, your municipality doses not use chloramines do they? That would be another carbon/specific kind of carbon filter that would be best to add instead of di.

If you are still going to rip it all and add real ocean rock, it still wouldnt be a bad idea to know what is in your RO water so it doesnt just become a problem in the future, if that is indeed what is at issue here. For sand, how about nature's ocean samoa pink #1? That is another good sand.

My Tests as of Wednesday are

Salinity 1.026
Alk. 8.8dkh
Nitrates 3.3ppm
Phos. 0.07
The only thing that concerns me is my pH. On a hannah checker it always blinks 8.6. I think it's the tester though. I have ordered a new one.
Calcium (tested today) 380
Magnesium (tested today) 1420

I dose All For Reef 5ml 4x a day

Sorry, I meant carbon filter. Here is the one I'm thinking of purchasing.
BRS 5 Stage Premium Plus 75 GPD RO/DI System

It rains here ALL the time and we constantly have "Boil Your Water" advisories. I litterally live at the end of the world. Getting anything shipped is very hard and takes forever. I can't even get Copepods where I am which I also think is harming my system. I have added copepods before the move so they could be in there somewhere. I can only hope as I haven't seen any in my refugium.

The only water testing I've been able to find for my municipality is from 2023. I do know that they use chlorine to disinfect the water and they add things like flouride.

I can get nature's ocean. I think that's what is in there... only 40lbs. The rest of it is some kind of no name agaronite sand that is more like powder than sand. Horrible stuff.

I'll still get that ICP test. I just need something done now. Since the move I've lost all shimp, snails, and crabs. A firefish goby. Longfin sleeper goby. 2 different types of blennies. A clown fish. Two torches. 3 Gonioporas. 2 trumpet corals. An acan. And even a hardy as steel mushroom coral. I have Zoas that haven't opened in over two weeks. I'm surprised they're still alive. My birdsnest is bleaching... its just not good. I would blame it on a mini cycle, but I just don't think I'd see this type of distruction on a mini cycle.

 

[Red_Beard]

My Tests as of Wednesday are

Salinity 1.026
Alk. 8.8dkh
Nitrates 3.3ppm
Phos. 0.07
The only thing that concerns me is my pH. On a hannah checker it always blinks 8.6. I think it's the tester though. I have ordered a new one.
Calcium (tested today) 380
Magnesium (tested today) 1420

I dose All For Reef 5ml 4x a day

Sorry, I meant carbon filter. Here is the one I'm thinking of purchasing.
BRS 5 Stage Premium Plus 75 GPD RO/DI System

It rains here ALL the time and we constantly have "Boil Your Water" advisories. I litterally live at the end of the world. Getting anything shipped is very hard and takes forever. I can't even get Copepods where I am which I also think is harming my system. I have added copepods before the move so they could be in there somewhere. I can only hope as I haven't seen any in my refugium.

The only water testing I've been able to find for my municipality is from 2023. I do know that they use chlorine to disinfect the water and they add things like flouride.

I can get nature's ocean. I think that's what is in there... only 40lbs. The rest of it is some kind of no name agaronite sand that is more like powder than sand. Horrible stuff.

I'll still get that ICP test. I just need something done now. Since the move I've lost all shimp, snails, and crabs. A firefish goby. Longfin sleeper goby. 2 different types of blennies. A clown fish. Two torches. 3 Gonioporas. 2 trumpet corals. An acan. And even a hardy as steel mushroom coral. I have Zoas that haven't opened in over two weeks. I'm surprised they're still alive. My birdsnest is bleaching... its just not good. I would blame it on a mini cycle, but I just don't think I'd see this type of distruction on a mini cycle.

No, you are right, that is a LOT of loss. A mini cycle shouldn’t have wiped out fish. Shrimp, unlikely but possible. All those numbers from tests look right on the money. I think your assessment that it is something in the water is not right. That 5 stage is the same system i run, it has worked really good for me. I did add another DI stage to it, so i am running 2 carbon filters and 2 di filters, both mixed bed. when the front one gets exhausted, i will rotate the 2nd one to the first position and replace the 2nd, that has worked really well. If your muni doesn’t add chloramines that should be a great unit for you.

I really hope you get this figured out, it really sucks when stuff like this happens and you feel helpless until it gets sorted.

 

[Subsea]

If you can put your livestock in tanks, then rip clean your system. Since you don’t like your extra fine sand, I would discard it. Your live rock will inoculate your biofiltration. Consider adding extra surface area in your sump for bacteria to colonize. I like using live rock in a cryptic refugium.

I like hydrogen peroxide for sanitizing things like your display tank.

 

[Subsea]

‘I'm getting a new RO/DI system that's a 5 stage instead of the 4 stage I have now. Even though the TDS reading is 0 with the 4 stage, I think there is something getting through feeding the growth of diatoms, cyano, and algae.’

@LunaSky

Diatoms are your best method to control Cyanobacteria & Dinoflagellets. Silicates can not be removed by RO/DI. Many dose silicates for sponges and/or desirable macro algae

 

[LunaSky]

If you can put your livestock in tanks, then rip clean your system. Since you don’t like your extra fine sand, I would discard it. Your live rock will inoculate your biofiltration. Consider adding extra surface area in your sump for bacteria to colonize. I like using live rock in a cryptic refugium.

I like hydrogen peroxide for sanitizing things like your display tank.

I use rubble in my sump... I have a whole basket in there. I don't have much room for more considering i also have a protien skimmer and refugium and ATO in there.

Hydrogen is a good idea too.

 

[LunaSky]

‘I'm getting a new RO/DI system that's a 5 stage instead of the 4 stage I have now. Even though the TDS reading is 0 with the 4 stage, I think there is something getting through feeding the growth of diatoms, cyano, and algae.’

@LunaSky

Diatoms are your best method to control Cyanobacteria & Dinoflagellets. Silicates can not be removed by RO/DI. Many dose silicates for sponges and/or desirable macro algae

Sure... but things are dying. I dont mind scrubbing the glass once a week but this isn't just Diatoms or even cyano. And while I have both, I also have very gross sludge brown algae, especially on the back glass of my tank.

 

[salwater_sai]

I started over and let me tell you. You're going to go through the same problems you have now. I had to dose microbactor7 and was running my biopellet reactor and recently added a GFO reactor and did a deep cleaning on my sand bed to get rid of the red slime that was taking over everything!!! And what really helped me was chemiclean but make sure you follow the instructions. Patience is key. Dose chemiclean, do deep sand bed cleaning, water changes and GFO reactor that's what helped me. I was planning on starting over again but it took me Months! To get back to what we use to have before starting over but at the end it will be worth it. Water flow is key also so it doesn't leave any dead spots.

 

[LunaSky]

I started over and let me tell you. You're going to go through the same problems you have now. I had to dose microbactor7 and was running my biopellet reactor and recently added a GFO reactor and did a deep cleaning on my sand bed to get rid of the red slime that was taking over everything!!! And what really helped me was chemiclean but make sure you follow the instructions. Patience is key. Dose chemiclean, do deep sand bed cleaning, water changes and GFO reactor that's what helped me. I was planning on starting over again but it took me Months! To get back to what we use to have before starting over but at the end it will be worth it. Water flow is key also so it doesn't leave any dead spots.

I think I have too much flow in my tank. I just recently dipped some algae covered corals in so Hydrogen Peroxide just yesterday. I'm doing a water change every 5 days instead of once a week. I've never had a GFO reactor and honestly don't know anything about it.

I just ordered a ICP test. Hopefully that will be coming soon.