Trident FAQ (official)

[boltzfan]

I'm sorry if this has been answered, but when will there be enough available that the majority of reefers such as myself, will be able to buy one?

 

[Atti2de]

Will there be a issue when my fuge light is on? The light will not alter the tests?

 

[Maacc]

Will there be a issue when my fuge light is on? The light will not alter the tests?

I believe Terrence said it was no problem as long as you don't take the cover off.

 

[mitch91175]

I do have a few questions that I do not recall seeing it being addressed and it's definitely not in the Official Trident FAQ.

What are the fail-safes that are included with the Trident for instances:

1. Not enough test water to complete an actual test
2. Not enough reagent in the container to complete the current test
3. Does the unit do a retest when dKH/cal/mag drops so many ppm, etc
4. What happens when the tested value is the same after so many test, say 4 in this instance?

This to me is critical if/when using the unit for corrective dosing. For example, the Trident reads dKH at 8.7 then 4 hours later reads it at 7.9. What happens in that situation? If corrective dosing is being used will the unit simply add the correction and test again in the next 4 hours?

What about in this scenario, the Trident test calcium as 450ppm then 4 hours later test at 200 ppm. What happens in this situation?

 

[eddius_maximus]

My trident arrived yesterday, loving it! Easy setup, and this morning was the first time in years I didn't immediately manually test my alk with my morning coffee.

Question:

I don't intend on getting a DOS as I've been using BRS dosers for years. I don't really mind manual adjustments based on the automated readings of the Trident. But I wouldn't mind adding some commands and would love some help.

- If Alk > 8.5, turn doser_1 off, and send an alert. How would I go about programming this?

 

[Timrpn]

I do not have one, nor will not get one in the near future, but maybe in the future, but just wondering now that people are testing around the clock, does anyone notice changes in Alk or Ca at night when the light are off compared during day time?

 

[chicago]

Eddius

How are the reading you are getting the AM.. without the coffer monitor compared to what you usually would see..

 

[Billldg]

@mitch91175 has a very good question. I would like to add on to it. If their is a drastic change in testing, lets say a 1 dkh in a 6 hour period, or a 100 ppm drop in a 12 hour period, does the min and max daily auto dos prevent it from over dosing a tank, or will the Trident simply disregard the readings unless the next reading shows the same trend?

 

[mitch91175]

@mitch91175 has a very good question. I would like to add on to it. If their is a drastic change in testing, lets say a 1 dkh in a 6 hour period, or a 100 ppm drop in a 12 hour period, does the min and max daily auto dos prevent it from over dosing a tank, or will the Trident simply disregard the readings unless the next reading shows the same trend?

I like this question for sure. It is time to really know what the unit is capable of doing and not doing that way informed decisions can be made (not that we do not have some info either).

We all know that the unit will test on a predetermined schedule (which is actually a problem). All of the questions that myself and @Billldg presented shows that being so restrictive on the testing interval will 100% present itself with some issues that could have the potential to be catastrophic and nuke a tank quickly.

Take this example. You have the Trident and DOS and are using the auto-correct features. I do not have a Trident or DOS so this is a sample scenario. You are out of town and do not have a tank sitter. At 6AM dKH reads 8.8dKH. You see that and your like sweet. 4 hours later dKH reads 5.65dKH. What happens?

Let's just say the DOS doses however many mls of dKH to bring it back up. BUT, now 4 hours later it test again and it measures 5.65 again? What about it even say measuring 6.10 or something like that.

Is it safe to say that if the Trident/DOS continues to dose in this scenario you may end up nuking your tank?

Please notice this can also be applied to both calcium and magnesium. I would like to know what exactly occurs in a situation like this.

 

[TTNuge]

I like this question for sure. It is time to really know what the unit is capable of doing and not doing that way informed decisions can be made (not that we do not have some info either).

We all know that the unit will test on a predetermined schedule (which is actually a problem). All of the questions that myself and @Billldg presented shows that being so restrictive on the testing interval will 100% present itself with some issues that could have the potential to be catastrophic and nuke a tank quickly.

Take this example. You have the Trident and DOS and are using the auto-correct features. I do not have a Trident or DOS so this is a sample scenario. You are out of town and do not have a tank sitter. At 6AM dKH reads 8.8dKH. You see that and your like sweet. 4 hours later dKH reads 5.65dKH. What happens?

Let's just say the DOS doses however many mls of dKH to bring it back up. BUT, now 4 hours later it test again and it measures 5.65 again? What about it even say measuring 6.10 or something like that.

Is it safe to say that if the Trident/DOS continues to dose in this scenario you may end up nuking your tank?

No, the tasks they have set up will only deviate from your baseline by a certain percentage to prevent you from nuking your tank. This has been discussed since they started mentioning using the Trident to control your dosing via the DOS.

 

[mitch91175]

No, the tasks they have set up will only deviate from your baseline by a certain percentage to prevent you from nuking your tank. This has been discussed since they started mentioning using the Trident to control your dosing via the DOS.

Thanks for that tidbit, but now let's actually talk about the actual product handling the actual scenario that was presented. For all those NSI testers and people that have been given the unit or have it currently running, what ACTUALLY occurs in these situations?

I would love to see some graphs when the unit does have a significant dKH drop and what occurs on both the after test and the DOS dosing.

I'd imagine that it has occurred for sure even during Neptune's own testing of the product.

 

[eschulist]

I do have a few questions that I do not recall seeing it being addressed and it's definitely not in the Official Trident FAQ.

What are the fail-safes that are included with the Trident for instances:

1. Not enough test water to complete an actual test
2. Not enough reagent in the container to complete the current test
3. Does the unit do a retest when dKH/cal/mag drops so many ppm, etc
4. What happens when the tested value is the same after so many test, say 4 in this instance?

This to me is critical if/when using the unit for corrective dosing. For example, the Trident reads dKH at 8.7 then 4 hours later reads it at 7.9. What happens in that situation? If corrective dosing is being used will the unit simply add the correction and test again in the next 4 hours?

What about in this scenario, the Trident test calcium as 450ppm then 4 hours later test at 200 ppm. What happens in this situation?

I actually typed a long response to this and my app crashed and I lost it all. But I’ll retype it as I think a lot of these are important.

I was on round 1 of NSI since Jan.

1. If the sample line falls out of your sump, get way too many bubbles in the line, or the water level drops too low and then lets air in you’ll see a RED Sample Error. No test will be preformed. If you have alerts turned on in your main email_alerts tile you will see this.

2. The Trident and internal pump calculates how many ml of reagent is being used for all the tests. This number is subtracted from the total ml that each bottle starts with. As it decreases these values will be reported on the Trident tile. Both % remaining and tests remaining. Once it calculates to around 8-10 tests remaining it will give a RED error. Reagent A, B or C Empty. However if it didn’t calculate correctly or if you reset the reagent bottles value without actually swapping the bottles it will continue to pull reagent until it goes dry. As it gets very very close to empty the tests will become innacurate as the line will be drawing in small air bubbles and think it needs to dose more to get a color change. If it draws too much air and the test gives very strange results it will give a RED Test A, B, C Error.

3. Yes. The Trident is very precise by calculating on previous values and double checking values when they vary wildly. I’ll give an example. My numbers will all be made up so don’t take them as fact. You get a few tests as 8.12, 8.27, 8.24 etc. The next test says 6.93. It most likely got this value by testing 2-3 times. When it finds a large change it will retest with a wide range 6-8,8-10,10-12 instead of between 8-8.5 for example. When it sees its in the 6-8 range it retests to get a more precise and confirmed value. Sometimes it will even not log large swings on the graph as a safety. Those need to be confirmed.

4. If you get 4 of the exact same value, great job on keeping it stable. If you meant a value of 4dkh it is going to give you a Test A Error. I don’t know the full range but I can say that when it’s outside of anything realistic. 3 or 4dkh, 16 dkh etc it will give you Test Error warning or not record anything as it’s unfeasible to even get results on these ranges.

For controlled dosing if large changes ever happen your tank is safe from huge overdoses or underdoses. There are safety ranges built in. Say you want 8.5 as your dHK. Your range may be 8-9. A .5 swing in either direction. When values come back between those readings your dosing will auto adjust. The closer to 8 the larger % of dose. This is your limit value. Let’s say your limit value is 30%. If you normally dose 50ml as the result of the Trident approached 8 it would dose as much as 65ml. If it was 8.4 it would be closer to 52 ml. As your readings went to 9 your dose would be as low as 35ml.
Now if the Trident reports large swings outside that range it is going to send you an error alert that it’s outside your set range 8-9 and then return to your default 50ml dose. If it was 7dkh or 10 it would still only dose 50ml as that is your standard default that you have set.

The same is for Calcium. You set the normal dose amount, default value target, range, and limit. 50ml, 400ppm, 50ppm range (350-450) and limit of 30%. If the Trident reported 300 controlled dosing would send you an alert that it’s out of range and return back to the default.

 

[TTNuge]

I actually typed a long response to this and my app crashed and I lost it all. But I’ll retype it as I think a lot of these are important.

I was on round 1 of NSI since Jan.

1. If the sample line falls out of your sump, get way too many bubbles in the line, or the water level drops too low and then lets air in you’ll see a RED Sample Error. No test will be preformed. If you have alerts turned on in your main email_alerts tile you will see this.

2. The Trident and internal pump calculates how many ml of reagent is being used for all the tests. This number is subtracted from the total ml that each bottle starts with. As it decreases these values will be reported on the Trident tile. Both % remaining and tests remaining. Once it calculates to around 8-10 tests remaining it will give a RED error. Reagent A, B or C Empty. However if it didn’t calculate correctly or if you reset the reagent bottles value without actually swapping the bottles it will continue to pull reagent until it goes dry. As it gets very very close to empty the tests will become innacurate as the line will be drawing in small air bubbles and think it needs to dose more to get a color change. If it draws too much air and the test gives very strange results it will give a RED Test A, B, C Error.

3. Yes. The Trident is very precise by calculating on previous values and double checking values when they vary wildly. I’ll give an example. My numbers will all be made up so don’t take them as fact. You get a few tests as 8.12, 8.27, 8.24 etc. The next test says 6.93. It most likely got this value by testing 2-3 times. When it finds a large change it will retest with a wide range 6-8,8-10,10-12 instead of between 8-8.5 for example. When it sees its in the 6-8 range it retests to get a more precise and confirmed value. Sometimes it will even not log large swings on the graph as a safety. Those need to be confirmed.

4. If you get 4 of the exact same value, great job on keeping it stable. If you meant a value of 4dkh it is going to give you a Test A Error. I don’t know the full range but I can say that when it’s outside of anything realistic. 3 or 4dkh, 16 dkh etc it will give you Test Error warning or not record anything as it’s unfeasible to even get results on these ranges.

For controlled dosing if large changes ever happen your tank is safe from huge overdoses or underdoses. There are safety ranges built in. Say you want 8.5 as your dHK. Your range may be 8-9. A .5 swing in either direction. When values come back between those readings your dosing will auto adjust. The closer to 8 the larger % of dose. This is your limit value. Let’s say your limit value is 30%. If you normally dose 50ml as the result of the Trident approached 8 it would dose as much as 65ml. If it was 8.4 it would be closer to 52 ml. As your readings went to 9 your dose would be as low as 35ml.
Now if the Trident reports large swings outside that range it is going to send you an error alert that it’s outside your set range 8-9 and then return to your default 50ml dose. If it was 7dkh or 10 it would still only dose 50ml as that is your standard default that you have set.

The same is for Calcium. You set the normal dose amount, default value target, range, and limit. 50ml, 400ppm, 50ppm range (350-450) and limit of 30%. If the Trident reported 300 controlled dosing would send you an alert that it’s out of range and return back to the default.

Thanks for that, excellent info!

 

[mitch91175]

I actually typed a long response to this and my app crashed and I lost it all. But I’ll retype it as I think a lot of these are important.

I was on round 1 of NSI since Jan.

1. If the sample line falls out of your sump, get way too many bubbles in the line, or the water level drops too low and then lets air in you’ll see a RED Sample Error. No test will be preformed. If you have alerts turned on in your main email_alerts tile you will see this.

2. The Trident and internal pump calculates how many ml of reagent is being used for all the tests. This number is subtracted from the total ml that each bottle starts with. As it decreases these values will be reported on the Trident tile. Both % remaining and tests remaining. Once it calculates to around 8-10 tests remaining it will give a RED error. Reagent A, B or C Empty. However if it didn’t calculate correctly or if you reset the reagent bottles value without actually swapping the bottles it will continue to pull reagent until it goes dry. As it gets very very close to empty the tests will become innacurate as the line will be drawing in small air bubbles and think it needs to dose more to get a color change. If it draws too much air and the test gives very strange results it will give a RED Test A, B, C Error.

3. Yes. The Trident is very precise by calculating on previous values and double checking values when they vary wildly. I’ll give an example. My numbers will all be made up so don’t take them as fact. You get a few tests as 8.12, 8.27, 8.24 etc. The next test says 6.93. It most likely got this value by testing 2-3 times. When it finds a large change it will retest with a wide range 6-8,8-10,10-12 instead of between 8-8.5 for example. When it sees its in the 6-8 range it retests to get a more precise and confirmed value. Sometimes it will even not log large swings on the graph as a safety. Those need to be confirmed.

4. If you get 4 of the exact same value, great job on keeping it stable. If you meant a value of 4dkh it is going to give you a Test A Error. I don’t know the full range but I can say that when it’s outside of anything realistic. 3 or 4dkh, 16 dkh etc it will give you Test Error warning or not record anything as it’s unfeasible to even get results on these ranges.

For controlled dosing if large changes ever happen your tank is safe from huge overdoses or underdoses. There are safety ranges built in. Say you want 8.5 as your dHK. Your range may be 8-9. A .5 swing in either direction. When values come back between those readings your dosing will auto adjust. The closer to 8 the larger % of dose. This is your limit value. Let’s say your limit value is 30%. If you normally dose 50ml as the result of the Trident approached 8 it would dose as much as 65ml. If it was 8.4 it would be closer to 52 ml. As your readings went to 9 your dose would be as low as 35ml.
Now if the Trident reports large swings outside that range it is going to send you an error alert that it’s outside your set range 8-9 and then return to your default 50ml dose. If it was 7dkh or 10 it would still only dose 50ml as that is your standard default that you have set.

The same is for Calcium. You set the normal dose amount, default value target, range, and limit. 50ml, 400ppm, 50ppm range (350-450) and limit of 30%. If the Trident reported 300 controlled dosing would send you an alert that it’s out of range and return back to the default.

Ok now we are getting some where. So knowing the answer to #3 with the retest would have me assume that if you do have these types of swings, the reagent will definitely not last you 2 months. Is that fair to assess?

If above the range that I set for my tank, I do not want it to dose anything at all until back within my range. I'd guess you could maybe somehow program to not have a normal dose and just use the Trident/DOS combo with no regular DOS dosing schedule. But then I think you would need to run more test daily outside of the 4/2/2.

I could see reagent cost being higher than the every 2 months. With your system during the test, did the reagents last you for the 2 month period we are being told if you have been running 4/2/2?

Also noticed that you left out magnesium, lol.

 

[eschulist]

Ok now we are getting some where. So knowing the answer to #3 with the retest would have me assume that if you do have these types of swings, the reagent will definitely not last you 2 months. Is that fair to assess?

If above the range that I set for my tank, I do not want it to dose anything at all until back within my range. I'd guess you could maybe somehow program to not have a normal dose and just use the Trident/DOS combo with no regular DOS dosing schedule. But then I think you would need to run more test daily outside of the 4/2/2.

I could see reagent cost being higher than the every 2 months. With your system during the test, did the reagents last you for the 2 month period we are being told if you have been running 4/2/2?

Also noticed that you left out magnesium, lol.

Anything that I mentioned about Alk can be applied to Ca or Mg. The ranges and values are just different.

If your tank varied that much that it had to constantly do retests over and over there would be something wrong with the tank and it’s dosing equipment or autotop off changing the salinity frequently.

I ran the Trident on a 12 gallon tank, my levels were probably more varied than some of the other NSI members and yet I saw no dramatic shifts in Alk, Ca, or Mg that required frequent retests. Neptune found a good range for retests by allowing people with smaller tanks like mine from triggering them or throwing errors. When errors or large readings are reported it’s most likely due to something strange happening with the tank and you need to check it out.

Here is an example where I had an accident with my tank. My salinity probe and Trident recorded a sudden drop.

It turned out that I had a clownfish die and get stuck to my overflow. This caused my tanks water level to go up, sump went down, ATO kicked on and dumped in way more than usual. This happened while I was at work and I could see these drops. I get home and investigate to find the dead clown and way more water than usual. I did a water change that night and got everything back to normal. The salinity probe recorded the increase as well as the next Trident reading.

 

[jt17]

Any examples of programming fail safes with dos?

 

[rkpetersen]

My trident arrived yesterday, loving it! Easy setup, and this morning was the first time in years I didn't immediately manually test my alk with my morning coffee.

Question:

I don't intend on getting a DOS as I've been using BRS dosers for years. I don't really mind manual adjustments based on the automated readings of the Trident. But I wouldn't mind adding some commands and would love some help.

- If Alk > 8.5, turn doser_1 off, and send an alert. How would I go about programming this?

The latest alk, calcium and magnesium Inputs are now available to use in programming, similar to temp, pH, etc.
You can find and rename them on the Inputs (not Input Logs) page from the dashboard.
So for your doser, you would add this line to its control code:
If AlkTestName > 9 Then OFF

And then in your alert list, you'd add:
If AlkTestName > 9 Then ON

I do not have one, nor will not get one in the near future, but maybe in the future, but just wondering now that people are testing around the clock, does anyone notice changes in Alk or Ca at night when the light are off compared during day time?

Many have observed, even before the Trident was available, a definite repetitive drop in dKH during and for a couple of hours after the photoperiod of a tank with a lot of growing sps corals.
With even dosing of 2-part throughout the day and night, I found that the alk level would drop consistently by 0.2 to 0.3 dKH every day in my test tank.
I was surprised. This tank doesn't have a whole lot of sps. When I get another Trident, I'm sure I'll be displeased at what I find happening in the other tank, which does have some decent size colonies.
Here's a week's worth of Trident data from my test tank. The dips happened every afternoon.

I'd imagine that it has occurred for sure even during Neptune's own testing of the product.

I don't think even one person in the beta group reported an overdosing tank disaster. We were all very conscious of the possibility as we moved into the control aspect of it.

Ok now we are getting some where. So knowing the answer to #3 with the retest would have me assume that if you do have these types of swings, the reagent will definitely not last you 2 months. Is that fair to assess?

If you opt to do more frequent tests, it lasts a shorter time. If it has to retest more often because of errors, that uses reagent as well.
Many of the beta testers increased the testing frequency when okayed to do so, including myself, so reagents lasted less than two months.
During the first part of beta testing, we would also get errors more often, which was expected, and which also used reagents.

 

[rkpetersen]

Once the Trident is hooked up, can it be moved, or will this trigger the need to recalibrate the unit? I would like to make a place for it permanently in the near future but still want to hook it up today.

As long as both the Trident and the water lines are at about the same vertical level as before, no recalibration is probably necessary.
Otherwise yes you would want to recalibrate.

 

[JimWelsh]

I've posted this image before in other threads, but I think it's worth posting again now. This is from almost three years ago when I got the first AMI prototypes running. I, too, was dosing my tank with 2-part 24/7. I found that consumption lagged behind the photoperiod by about an hour or so. This is my alk back then, taking a reading every 10 minutes, for two days. The red line shows the photoperiod:

EDIT: I ended up doubling the rate at which I dosed, but only dosed between 11:00 AM and 11:00 PM. That ended up flattening out my alk graph nicely.

 

[Smarkow]

I've posted this image before in other threads, but I think it's worth posting again now. This is from almost three years ago when I got the first AMI prototypes running. I, too, was dosing my tank with 2-part 24/7. I found that consumption lagged behind the photoperiod by about an hour or so. This is my alk back then, taking a reading every 10 minutes, for two days. The red line shows the photoperiod:

EDIT: I ended up doubling the rate at which I dosed, but only dosed between 11:00 AM and 11:00 PM. That ended up flattening out my alk graph nicely.

This is really cool to see. I do notice you used an outside graphing software so guessing your prototype gave a data export. Trident and Apex devices could really UP their level of seriousness if they offered this feature. Obviously some of their products have been used by pro scientists already (thinking back to 2014 MACNA captive spawning of SPS by Jamie Craggs) but there is a lot of serious investigation being done at the hobbyist level that could benefit from apex data being available in a usable format (.csv, etc).

FYI if I am totally wrong and this is already available as a feature, just point me to it and I'll sing your praises lol