Tropic Marin Plus-NP, why combining N+P+Carbon in the same bottle?

Ilya_Tihomirov

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There is no possible product that can be added to an aquarium to boost pH that is not also an alkalinity supplement.

You can remove CO2 to raise pH (fresher air in the room, CO2 scrubber, more photosynthesis, etc.) or you can use an alkalinity supplement with a high boost to pH (carbonate) or a very high boost to pH (hydroxide).
I completely agree with you, but we are talking about the fact that the hydroxide will raise the pH much higher than the kH. Or I don't understand something
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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I completely agree with you, but we are talking about the fact that the hydroxide will raise the pH much higher than the kH. Or I don't understand something

For the same amount of alkalinity added:

Bicarbonate causes a slight pH lowering when added

Carbonate causes a substantial pH increase.

Hydroxide causes a higher pH increase. About twice the pH increase you get for carbonate.
 

Ilya_Tihomirov

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For the same amount of alkalinity added:

Bicarbonate causes a slight pH lowering when added

Carbonate causes a substantial pH increase.

Hydroxide causes a higher pH increase. About twice the pH increase you get for carbonate.
Where can I get information - for example, calcium hydroxide will raise рН by 1 unit and will raise кН by 0.1 units. The numbers is given as an example
 

Hans-Werner

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Where can I get information - for example, calcium hydroxide will raise рН by 1 unit and will raise кН by 0.1 units.
This depends a bit from the alkalinity. Alkalinity and pH together tell how many bicarbonate (HCO3-) and carbonate (CO3--) ions are in the water. When adding hydroxide (OH-) following reaction takes place:

HCO3- + OH- --> CO3-- + H2O

If your alkalinity is high the pH-shift will be smaller than if the alkalinity is low because the proportion of bicarbonate and carbonate ions shifts less when larger numbers of both are present.

At 7 dKH alkalinity you have ca. 2.5 mval/l total alkalinity (TA) of which at pH 8 are 89.8 % HCO3- and 6.7 % CO3--.

2.5 * 89.8 % = 2.245 mval/l HCO3-; 2.5 * 6.7 % = 0,1675 mval/l CO3--; together sums up to 2.4125 or 96.5 % of TA bicarbonate-carbonate-alkalinity

1 l of saturated calcium hydroxide (74.1 g/mol) solution is 1.7 g/l Ca(OH)2 or 22.9 mmol/l or twice as many mval/l, 45.9 mval/l.

If you add 1 l of this solution to 100 l of saltwater at 7° dKH and pH 8 you will shift the proportions by 45.9 mval/l : 100 = 0.459 mval/l. This will result in:

2.245 mval/l - 0.459 mval/l HCO3- = 1.786 mval/l HCO3- and 0.1675 mval/l + 0.459 mval/l CO3-- = 0.6265 mval/l CO3--
of 2.4125 bicarbonate-carbonate-alkalinity. The bicarbonate-carbonate alkalinity has not altered but their relative proportions and the contribution to total alkalinity has change significantly.

Of 2.5 mval/l total alkalinity now 1.786 mval/l or 71.44 % are HCO3- and 0.6265 mval/l or 25.06 % are CO3--;

Still 96.5 % of total alkalinity are bicarbonate-carbonate-alkalinity, but it has shifted from 89.8 % HCO3- + 6.7 % CO3-- to 71.44 % HCO3- + 25.06 % CO3--

Unfortunately my calculatory skills end here and I have no table how this translates to pH.
Now you can do the same calculation with any other alkalinity. 1 dKH = 0.3566 mval/l alkalinity. ;) :)

Maybe Randy can help.:)
 

Hans-Werner

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To answer your other questions:

You can use any Kalkwasser for saltwater aquaria.

The alkalinity of saturated Kalkwasser with 1.7 g/l Ca(OH)2 is 45.9 mval/l : 0.3566 mval/l =128.7 dKH.

Theoretically 1 l of saturated Kalkwasser in 100 l will increase alkalinity by 1.3 dKH. Practially it will cause precipitates in most reef aquaria, concluded from the increase in alkalinity together with the strong shift in bicarbonate - carbonate ratio. So take less and/or watch pH rise thoroughly. Do not exceed pH 8.3.
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Where can I get information - for example, calcium hydroxide will raise рН by 1 unit and will raise кН by 0.1 units. The numbers is given as an example

As noted, it depends on the alkalinity. Higher alk means less pH rise.

But in my tests, adding 1.4 dKH boosts pH instantly by about 0.65 pH units.

Half that amount will very roughly product half the pH rise, etc.

If that addition is spread out over many smaller additions, the rise is much less because the tank has time to pull in CO2, and lower pH, between additions.
 

Ilya_Tihomirov

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I gave up dosing NP-Plus to raise nitrates and phosphates - for 4 months of use, apart from lowering the pH, I did not see any effect on my SPS, LPS. The tests did not determine N and P in any way, but I got a very interesting experience in using NP-Plus, abandoning NP-Plus, I began to dose nitrate and phosphate in their direct form, nitrates broke off from 0 as well as phosphates (~ 15 and ~ 0.07 accordingly) to all this, I got AcroPower and unfortunately I allowed too much AP into my tank Nitrates jumped to 100 - and lo and behold, I saw colored polyps in my SPS, they began to gain color, as in principle all corals) but such nitrates are too high and harmful, I wanted to reduce them without any special efforts and large doses of vodka, for 10 days I fiddled with bacteria, etc., but somehow I thought if NP-plus kept my N / F at zero for so long, then maybe it will help now - 3 days dosing NP-Plus and voila - Nitrates ZERO)))
Now let's try such an experiment on another bank where they have also been struggling with Nitrates for some time without success.
 

Hans-Werner

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Is there a particular reason why going above 8.3 is not a good idea?
I don't recall exactly which pH Peter Wilkens, to my knowlegde the inventor of Kalkwasser for reef tanks, recommended, but it was not high, 8.2 or 8.3. The reason behind this limit is the oversaturation of the water and the danger of precipitation and cloudiness in the tank. From pH 8.4 or 8.5 upwards there is an increasing danger of formation of precipitates. Even when the water stays clear pumps or sand may be clogged by calcium carbonate precipitates.

Precipitates also reduce the efficiency of Kalkwasser because when exceeding a critical pH more calcium may get lost by precipitation than is added by more Kalkwasser (for sure this can somehow be calculated). This is the reason Peter Wilkens gave, not any health effect.

The critical pH is not a fix pH, it depends from phosphate, organics and other factors in the tank water when precipitation starts. Fresh saltwater without phosphates and organics will allow the formation of precipitates very readily.
 

ineption

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I don't recall exactly which pH Peter Wilkens, to my knowlegde the inventor of Kalkwasser for reef tanks, recommended, but it was not high, 8.2 or 8.3. The reason behind this limit is the oversaturation of the water and the danger of precipitation and cloudiness in the tank. From pH 8.4 or 8.5 upwards there is an increasing danger of formation of precipitates. Even when the water stays clear pumps or sand may be clogged by calcium carbonate precipitates.

Precipitates also reduce the efficiency of Kalkwasser because when exceeding a critical pH more calcium may get lost by precipitation than is added by more Kalkwasser (for sure this can somehow be calculated). This is the reason Peter Wilkens gave, not any health effect.

The critical pH is not a fix pH, it depends from phosphate, organics and other factors in the tank water when precipitation starts. Fresh saltwater without phosphates and organics will allow the formation of precipitates very readily.
Thanks Mr Hans for explanation! I thought more is better, but looks like nature likes it's equalibrium and balance
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Is there a particular reason why going above 8.3 is not a good idea?
Is this some how negative to coral health?

FWIW, I ran my tank at pH 8.35 to 8.55 for many years (until I got new storm windows and presumably the indoor air CO2 rose). In my case, that pH range was fine. Some hard corals may grow faster under those conditions.
 

ineption

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FWIW, I ran my tank at pH 8.35 to 8.55 for many years (until I got new storm windows and presumably the indoor air CO2 rose). In my case, that pH range was fine. Some hard corals may grow faster under those conditions.
Randy you are truly a great man for always helping me with any questions! Thank you.
One of the main reasons I wanted to double check on higher pH is because I have really been toying with idea of increasing my pH with use of kalkwasser (adding it using a kalk reactor via peri pump in slow manner running along side my calcium reactor.
The reason for wanting to do this is of course to get better growth from my little twiglets
Currently I am 9
7.9 at night and 8.2 max day time. Would like few extra points on top
 

Would you consider your tank to be balanced or lopsided when it comes to coral?

  • Balanced Mixed Reef

    Votes: 95 33.5%
  • Lopsided SPS

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  • Lopsided LPS

    Votes: 62 21.8%
  • Lopsided Zoanthids

    Votes: 19 6.7%
  • Lopdsided Soft Corals

    Votes: 41 14.4%
  • Lopsided NPS

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 10 3.5%
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