Tropic Marin Plus-NP, why combining N+P+Carbon in the same bottle?

[Hans-Werner]

You mean like this :

Yes, this is exactly what I mean. In the nineties a lot of reef aquarists still made the experience of rock hard bottom substrate.

NP-Bacto-Balance, Plus-NP and Elimi-NP are based on the same carbon source, which in my experience is the most coral-friendly carbon source. This was our main focus.

NP-Bacto-Balance contains a wider set of trace elements but since some time all three contain a basic set of trace elements that are of central importance for the metabolization of some nutrients, beyond the "standard metabolic processes".

I think this makes sense since in Plus-NP it is necessary to ensure proper metabolization of the added nutrients and in this way prevent accumulation of nutrients the corals can't make use of when short in these trace elements.

In Elimi-NP the trace elements make the intended lowering of nutrients more tolerable for the corals and prevent harsh antagonistic interactions of the nutrients.

 

[Reefahholic]

I recently found that NP Bacto balance contains the K+ elements. For some reason I’ve never heard Lou or anybody mention it. It is on the BRS product details though.

I did not know the others contained trace’s also. That isn’t listed on any of the products or information on BRS or other websites.

Which Trace’s are in the other products, and at what percentage compared to NP Bacto Balance? Like if NP bacto balance is at 100% trace, at what % would Plus NP be at?

The reason I ask is because I already dose trace’s, and if I started one of those products I want to pick the one that has the least amount of trace’s.

I do like the carbon source used in these products. Maybe you guys can add a 6th product to your line that doesn’t contain any traces for those of us already dosing.? That would be a great option to have.

 

[Reefahholic]

Nothing listed (trace’s) for Plus NP.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Which Trace’s are in the other products, and at what percentage compared to NP Bacto Balance? Like if NP bacto balance is at 100% trace, at what % would Plus NP be at?

While NP-Bacto-Balance and K+ Elements contain also iron and strontium, Plus-NP and Elimi-NP contain mainly manganese, nickel and zink.

Please note that any kind of growth will always consume also trace elements. Trace elements are also called micronutrients because they are needed for growth, just in smaller amounts. So any growth of organisms will remove trace elements, and without trace elements there will be no growth.

Since organic carbon dosing induces bacterial growth, not only nitrogen compounds and phosphate will be taken up but also trace elements.

This fact is regularly overlooked and in general the buildup of trace elements is much overestimated. Since Tropic Marin trace element dosing is very cautious you will hardly find the dosed trace elements when doing an ICP-OES analysis.

I think the publications of Shimek have led on a very wrong track. The trace elements added with feeds usually are not "still in the water" but are incorporated just like proteins and phosphates. ICP-OES analysis in recent years have shown that most reef tanks are net consumers of trace elements where added trace elements virtually "disappear" instead of build up.

 

[Reefahholic]

While NP-Bacto-Balance and K+ Elements contain also iron and strontium, Plus-NP and Elimi-NP contain mainly manganese, nickel and zink.

Thank you for that Hans. So just to recap, the NP-Bacto-Balance Contains K+ Elements and also Iron and Strontium.


The Plus-NP and Elimi-NP only contain Managanese, Nickel, and Zinc.? Or is there a few others? Sorry for the questions, but I want to be sure.

You are correct that a lot of traces are gone within 24 hrs. However, some that do appear to be depleted on OES (unable to detect at lower levels) are showing up on MS.

 

[Reefahholic]

Hans….

If you don’t let me know I’ll see it on ICP-MS anyway.

 

[Hans-Werner]

Please note, that I live in a different time zone and I separate between my work and my leisure time.

This is not the level I communicate at.

 

[Reefahholic]

Please note, that I live in a different time zone and I separate between my work and my leisure time.

This is not the level I communicate at.

My apologies.

I’m just a little surprised to find out that NP Bacto Balance has K+ elements in it. I’ve listened to several Live Streams and Videos of Lou Ekus promoting the product, but I’ve never once heard him mention “K+ elements” being in NP Bacto Balance. I may be getting old, and maybe I just didn’t catch it. Forgive me if Lou did indeed mention it.

I did see it was listed on the BRS website afterwards. That was my mistake for not fully reading about that product. I just thought that I already knew what was in it (a carbon source only).

Now I’m finding out that more products from your same carbon dosing line also have trace elements in them, and that is definitely not listed on BRS’s website or your own website that I can see. In particular I’m speaking about Plus-NP. Why not list that information? Isn’t it reasonable to inform your customers about what they’re putting into their systems especially when it relates to trace element’s.?

Even at a very weak ratio it can still interfere with those already dosing trace element’s over time. Some guys have elements that are through the roof. Adding more fuel to the fire (even if very minimal) will only complicate things further.

 

[Reefahholic]

Plus-NP

 

[Hans-Werner]

Isn’t it reasonable to inform your customers about what they’re putting into their systems especially when it relates to trace element’s.?

We give this information to our customers. Please go to our homepage for information.

Under "Other product recommendations":

"Trace elements of Tropic Marin® K+ Elements are already present in the product. However, adding another 1 ml/100 l Tropic Marin® K+ Elements can have a positive effect on the colour of the corals.
For a full supply of micronutrients, we also recommend adding Tropic Marin® A- Elements to supplement missing trace minerals such as iodine, bromine, fluoride, vanadium, molybdenum and selenium. In this case, add the same amount of Tropic Marin® A- Elements that you used of Tropic Marin® NP-Bacto-Balance and Tropic Marin® K+ Elements together."

It is also on the inner layer of the layered label of the product. The label should be opened at the arrow on the right edge of the label to read the full instruction and information.

 

[Reefahholic]

We give this information to our customers. Please go to our homepage for information.

Under "Other product recommendations":

"Trace elements of Tropic Marin® K+ Elements are already present in the product. However, adding another 1 ml/100 l Tropic Marin® K+ Elements can have a positive effect on the colour of the corals.
For a full supply of micronutrients, we also recommend adding Tropic Marin® A- Elements to supplement missing trace minerals such as iodine, bromine, fluoride, vanadium, molybdenum and selenium. In this case, add the same amount of Tropic Marin® A- Elements that you used of Tropic Marin® NP-Bacto-Balance and Tropic Marin® K+ Elements together."

It is also on the inner layer of the layered label of the product. The label should be opened at the arrow on the right edge of the label to read the full instruction and information.

Ok, I see that. Thank you for that information. Why is this not listed in the main summary about the product though? Also, it’s not listed at all for Plus-NP. I’m just curious why you guys wouldn’t list that information for Plus-NP or Elimi-NP.?

 

[Reefahholic]

While NP-Bacto-Balance and K+ Elements contain also iron and strontium, Plus-NP and Elimi-NP contain mainly manganese, nickel and zinc.

With Full Respect…I think anybody would want to know and can easily verify what I’m asking here on your website.

I’m still curious why you guys wouldn’t list Manganese, Nickel, and Zinc in the Product Ingredients, Product Description, or in the Benefits section for both Plus-NP and Elimi-NP?

I’m equally confused as to why NP-Bacto-Balance is only listed as having K+ Element’s down at the bottom of the page under “Other Product Recommendations.” That doesn’t fall into the category of “product recommendation.” Those elements are the actual ingredients in the product, and should be listed under the ingredients or in the main summary of the product.


Why not be transparent. You were when I asked, so why not list it from the beginning so nobody has to ask.?

 

[Superlightman]

I think it would just be more complicated and misleading for people not unterstand for what purpose it is inside and in wich dose. Hans Werner told you it is because bacteria will consume it, so it is needed in the product. He told you already that it will probably not change the ratio of the elements already in your tank as the bacteria will go to consume it. So if you have to much or not, it will not change anything as it will be consumed. I explained it to you and you did not unterstand it, so what you think about people have no experience? I will be just more misleading. Actually Hans Werner give you more information as all other manufacturers, wich for some give you nothing or wrong information. Instead of make mad the products because of your misteak m try to find the real source and correct your misteaks and you will be able to ad such products with a peacefull mind.

 

[Jeffbear]

Pheeww. Now I'm confused. I've been trying to raise my phosphate number for months. Over feeding hasn't worked. I bought Plus NP to raise my phosphates and bring my Nitrates down, believing this is a carbon dosing method with 0.00-0.001 phosphates in mind. Then the plan was to switch to the Balance product when the phosphates get to .03. Am I right in this?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Pheeww. Now I'm confused. I've been trying to raise my phosphate number for months. Over feeding hasn't worked. I bought Plus NP to raise my phosphates and bring my Nitrates down, believing this is a carbon dosing method with 0.00-0.001 phosphates in mind. Then the plan was to switch to the Balance product when the phosphates get to .03. Am I right in this?

Why not just dose some phosphate?

 

[Jeffbear]

Why not just dose some phosphate?

I've been dosing neophos. It dose the job after dosing what feels like a lot. 3ml a day and reef roids raise it up but it drops in 2 days if I stop. At this point it looks like I should own stock in Brightwell Aquatics

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've been dosing neophos. It dose the job after dosing what feels like a lot. 3ml a day and reef roids raise it up but it drops in 2 days if I stop. At this point it looks like I should own stock in Brightwell Aquatics

Brightwell's Neophos is expensive, fairly dilute, and carries no purity assurance.

Better choices include food grade sodium phosphate. It is quite inexpensive, carries purity assurance, and can be made to whatever potency you prefer.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Here's an example, but there are many similar forms and brands:

 

[Jeffbear]

Brightwell's Neophos is expensive, fairly dilute, and carries no purity assurance.

Better choices include food grade sodium phosphate. It is quite inexpensive, carries purity assurance, and can be made to whatever potency you prefer.

Thank you Randy! I'm looking into it now. I'm not quite sure how to dose this though.

 

[Superlightman]

I would like also to struggle to keep phosphate high,but in all my tanks I struggle to keep they low.I have big skimmer, do carbon dosing feed not too much, but they are still high no matter what I do