Vibrant - What is it actually?

KGV

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Not sure why this lengthy thread. Aren't the ingredients on their website, no? This is what I found.

Some suggested above that it also contained chemicals with an algaecide function. I think many of these would require an available MSDS sheet, and I couldn't find that for Vibrant. Therefore, I think the ingredients they list are correct and complete.
Vibrant.jpg
 
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Randy Holmes-Farley

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Not sure why this lengthy thread. Aren't the ingredients on their website, no? This is what I found.

Some suggested above that it also contained chemicals with an algaecide function. I think many of these would require an available MSDS sheet, and I couldn't find that for Vibrant. Therefore, I think the ingredients they list are correct and complete.
Vibrant.jpg

I'm not making any claims about the current topic, but I will address the idea that all one needs to do, in general, is read manufacturer info.

Two comments:

1. Many reef product suppliers are, sadly, an extraordinarily poor source of accurate info. Assuming they are not intentionally deceiving users, the best that can be said is that they are ignorant of facts. The list of those includes some "big names" in the reef supply world. Apparently, factual correctness is an attribute that is not required to thrive.

2. That description says nothing about how or why it works, and thus says nothing about when it might fail or worse.
 
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RyanS

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I'm not making any claims about the current topic, but I will address the idea that all one needs to do, in general, is read manufacturer info.

Two comments:

1. Many reef product suppliers are, sadly, an extraordinarily poor source of accurate info. Assuming they are not intentionally deceiving users, the best that can be said is that they are ignorant of facts. The list of those includes some "big names" in the reef supply world. Apparently, factual correctness is an attribute that is not required to thrive.

2. That description says nothing about how or why it works, and thus says nothing about when it might fail or worse.
@Randy Holmes-Farley I want to thank you for your participation in this subject and couldn't agree more with this last statement. My OP was to demystify this product and to stop accepting it at face value. While there have been many successes, there have also been failures. The dosing instruction is precise and actually little which should make everyone want to know more about the product. For a 20 gallon tank after removing volume from live rock, that would equate to about 1.5ml every 2 weeks. I have started to see my zoas being negatively affected in recent days for some reason. At this time I can not 100% attribute it to Vibrant. There is some kind of a film like a green/brown cyano on some of their bases. I sprayed it off with hydrogen peroxide (it easily melted off) last night and put in some fresh activated carbon. It'll be interesting to see how they are doing today.

Without getting side tracked too much, the reason of the original post is definitely to know more about this product than what it says on a label, their website, or directly from them on these forums. I feel there is much to learn and not all information is being divulged. It'll be our job to dive in and learn about it.

If you can't test what you are dosing, you either shouldn't be dosing it or you must ABSOLUTLY KNOW that if you overdose - nothing bad will come from it. Even as long as this product has been on the market, we still need more info. The product gives no information about overdosing, real precautions, or any ill effects it might have if you do so. There is no MSDS for microbial cultures that I'm aware of. There has been no real chemical analysis preformed that I know of either. I'm really curious if there is something other than biological ingredients not being admitted to such as an algaecide.


These are not accusations. We simply do not know what we don't know. I can attest that it works. It melted my hair algae problem in the matter of a few days and 95+% gone within a week. Two 1.5ml doses sure is a little bit to do such work! This is why I'm suspect.

I'm including 2 images of my tank, 9 days apart.
 

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taricha

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I previously suggested that it contains bacillus bacteria. These release hydrolytic enzymes that help to break-up sludge. But these are also bad for other organisms that live on detritus. This is the same as for Dr Tim's re-fresh and waste-away. These also contain a warning that overdosing can kill CUC.

Could well be true that there's bacillus. There are many strains and their use is widespread in aquaculture.

Refresh warns about harm to shrimp and snails. Waste away warns about low O2 risk of overdose (this risk is due in large part to organic content of WA and is irrespective of bacterial activity in the product).

Got a source or link to reading material on harm to sensitive inverts from bacillus?
 
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KGV

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Could well be true that there's bacillus. There are many strains and their use is widespread in aquaculture.

Refresh warns about harm to shrimp and snails. Waste away warns about low O2 risk of overdose (this risk is due in large part to organic content of WA and is irrespective of bacterial activity in the product).

Got a source or link to reading material on harm to sensitive inverts from bacillus
Some bacillus strains produce endotoxins that can cause necrosis of the inner epithelium of inverts. And inverts probably scavenge on detritus that is loaded with bacillus. I don't remember a reference from the top of my head but a quick search should lead you there quickly. Note, however, that this is purely speculation from my side! Unless they tell us the bacterial strain. On the other hand, I would bet a lot of money on that it is bacillus.

An alternative, but perhaps poorer hypothesis, is that the inverts simply die because this products are so good in removing sludge and starving out algae. Thus removing the inverts' food source.
 

homer1475

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Other then chem nerds, who really cares? Most people now a days could care less whats IN something, just that it works or not.

Welcome to the new norm of "no one cares as long as it works, and works fast" crowd.

I for one am very intrested in whats exactly in it, as I'm a chem nerd.
 

LgTas

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Other then chem nerds, who really cares? Most people now a days could care less whats IN something, just that it works or not.

Welcome to the new norm of "no one cares as long as it works, and works fast" crowd.

I for one am very intrested in whats exactly in it, as I'm a chem nerd.
Also known as the new norm of debunking hard science with #fake news.

Back to topic: @UWC can you confirm what your testing showed in respect of impacts on inverts? I'm busy dosing at the recommended amount but will stop if there is any risk to my shrimp, sea stars or urchins.
 

KGV

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Other then chem nerds, who really cares? Most people now a days could care less whats IN something, just that it works or not.

Welcome to the new norm of "no one cares as long as it works, and works fast" crowd.

I for one am very intrested in whats exactly in it, as I'm a chem nerd.
I do think many people care, but this hobby is also very multidisciplinary, involving chemistry, microbiology, biology, medicine, etc.. Even with an academic background it's hard to cover all these bases.
 

somekindabonita

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I think most of these products are based on processes used in the waste water industry. My guess is that it contains bacillus, and possibly an alcohol source to feed heterotrophic bacteria. All meant to breakup waste and to remove nutrients. No snakeoil, believe me, nearly all water plants over the world uses these principles.
I didn't think Bacillus would survive well in that low of a pH for extended periods. Usually any pH swing below 4.5 tends to wipe out the system at my work.
 
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KGV

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At least based on talking to Tim Hovanec from Dr Tim's aquatics, both Refresh and Waste-Away are bacillus based.

But I believe @Lasse knows a thing or two about the use of bacillus for waste water plants and sludge in aquariums.
 

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At least based on talking to Tim Hovanec from Dr Tim's aquatics, both Refresh and Waste-Away are bacillus based.

But I believe @Lasse knows a thing or two about the use of bacillus for waste water plants and sludge in aquariums.
Probably right about these products - however it needs some DOC (Dissolved Organic Carbon) in order to have them to grow in a normal aquarium - probably already inside the product. But vibrant is another question and i´m not sure anyone want to be on that train. It looks like it attacks the Chlorophyll - IMO - and if is done by biological action - I think we are skating on a very thin ice here.

Sincerely Lasse
 

diverrad

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I surprised that no one is amazed you tasted it!! That alone is worth a thousand likes!
 

taricha

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I surprised that no one is amazed you tasted it!! That alone is worth a thousand likes!
There are less hazardous ways to rule out bacillus anthracis as an ingredient. :p

Usually any pH swing below 4.5 tends to wipe out the system at my work.
But as endospores, they could be delivered through all sorts of harsh conditions, right?
 
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RyanS

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So... have we determined what algaecide is in this stuff yet? :p

If there was actually live bacteria in this bottle, one would think there would be storage instruction in the refrigerator and also a shelf life of something more than "a few years".

While it works ridding algae, The more I read and study.. the less I trust the ingredient list.

Where is the MSDS? If a kid did get hold of the entire bottle and drank it, what would happen? How would the emergency room know what was really ingested? Yes, I tasted by touching to my tongue and washed my mouth out quickly... but think about the more serious note of a little kid turning the bottle up.

@UWC needs to give up the ghost and provide more info about the ingredients. Lots of thoughts about what's in it and the threads just go on and on.


If there is an algaecide in it, what would this mean to us all? How can we test for this?



Capture.PNG
 
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RyanS

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We need to figure this out. I'll submit a sample of Vibrant for microbiome sequencing at our core facility to determine the bacterial strains present as I don't like to use proprietary biological products without knowledge of the actual ingredients. I think the 3.5% is simply RO/DI water as stated and the 95% cultured bacterial blend is the spent culture medium used to grow the bacterial blend - this is of course mostly water (>99%).

95% Cultured Bacteria Blend
1% Amino Acids (Aspartic Acid)
0.5% Vinegar - This is used as the preservative
3.5% Other Ingredients (RO/DI Water)
@Courtney Aldrich did you ever get any results?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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So... have we determined what algaecide is in this stuff yet? :p

If there was actually live bacteria in this bottle, one would think there would be storage instruction in the refrigerator and also a shelf life of something more than "a few years".

While it works ridding algae, The more I read and study.. the less I trust the ingredient list.

Where is the MSDS? If a kid did get hold of the entire bottle and drank it, what would happen? How would the emergency room know what was really ingested? Yes, I tasted by touching to my tongue and washed my mouth out quickly... but think about the more serious note of a little kid turning the bottle up.

@UWC needs to give up the ghost and provide more info about the ingredients. Lots of thoughts about what's in it and the threads just go on and on.


If there is an algaecide in it, what would this mean to us all? How can we test for this?



Capture.PNG

Without knowing what might be there, it's hard to test for "it".

Autoclave it and then see if it still works could be a functionality test.
 
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RyanS

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Without knowing what might be there, it's hard to test for "it".

Autoclave it and then see if it still works could be a functionality test.

At this point, I'm thinking about finding some lab to send my bottle to so a complete biological/chemical analysis can be done. I'm trying to figure out what services I should be looking for.

It's reading like an algaecide with some carbon dosing to me. When you experience and see stories of it getting used and then all of a sudden algae goes white and decomposes, that's algaecide IMO.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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At this point, I'm thinking about finding some lab to send my bottle to so a complete biological/chemical analysis can be done. I'm trying to figure out what services I should be looking for.

It's reading like an algaecide with some carbon dosing to me. When you experience and see stories of it getting used and then all of a sudden algae goes white and decomposes, that's algaecide IMO.

There's no such thing as a complete chemical analysis. Mixtures of organics are terribly complicated to analyze.

If you have specific algaecides in mind, you may be able to get tests done for each one at some exhorbitant price. In my real world job, we have a company detect a particular drug in solution, where they already have a worked out analytical method, and it is $80 per sample with minimum batch size of 50.
 

taricha

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If there was actually live bacteria in this bottle, one would think there would be storage instruction in the refrigerator and also a shelf life of something more than "a few years".

BottleBac culture-up.png


As you can see (green data), there is something in a newly opened bottle of vibrant that is culturable in enriched saltwater media.
This doesn't say anything about whether it's important or not. Just, that there's something growable in saltwater in this product (and all the others too - if you make the saltwater tasty enough.)
 
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