ScottR
Surfing....
Of course it’s not dominant on a reef. And then, how much of what we put in our tanks is dominant on a reef?
Vibrant - What is it actually?
- Thread starter RyanS
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I actually just started using it. For those of you have used it. Do you see a dramatic drop in nitrate or phosphate when you add it? I don’t carbon dose either. When you do your additions of a carbon source how quickly do the nutrient levels drop? Would adding the minimal dose recommended by the manufacturer of which 4% may be a carbon source be enough to outcompete the algae in your tanks?
We need to figure this out. I'll submit a sample of Vibrant for microbiome sequencing at our core facility to determine the bacterial strains present as I don't like to use proprietary biological products without knowledge of the actual ingredients. I think the 3.5% is simply RO/DI water as stated and the 95% cultured bacterial blend is the spent culture medium used to grow the bacterial blend - this is of course mostly water (>99%).
95% Cultured Bacteria Blend
1% Amino Acids (Aspartic Acid)
0.5% Vinegar - This is used as the preservative
3.5% Other Ingredients (RO/DI Water)
95% Cultured Bacteria Blend
1% Amino Acids (Aspartic Acid)
0.5% Vinegar - This is used as the preservative
3.5% Other Ingredients (RO/DI Water)
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tehmadreefer
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RyanS
Community Member
^ This is the kind of effort we need to see. Thank you Dr. Aldrich!
If I had the facilities to do such a thing, I would.I’m guessing it’s a spp of Cyanobacteria but it may be something entirely different. The key is going to figuring out what genus of bacteria it is. That is what will really dictate what kind of food sources they will use.
I come from a brewing background and the groups I'm involved in dive into and understand the yeasts and bacteria we use to brew inside and out. Educating ourselves has made the hobby and industry much stronger than it use to be. It's driven various yeast labs to better themselves and also lead to new businesses opening.
Thanks again and I look forward to any results you can share about the type of bacteria in this blend. It'll be eye opening and I believe sharing this information will spark innovation in this hobby/industry just like I know it did in brewing when I started a little group many years ago called "Milk the Funk".
If you do any brewing research on yeast/bacteria, the MTF wiki will probably be one of the first things that pops up on a search result.
They say that the bacteria doesn't reproduce and that it works just during 3 or 4 days. On the other hand, there are cases of people who tried to bring chaeto back to the refugium a week or 2 after stopping Vibrant and saw it melt.
I began dosing 4 months ago and I saw a few SPS go through severe burn episodes. I have an alkalinity monitor and noticed that really minor alk spikes (0.5) burned the corals. I had to bring my alk down 1.2 dKH (from 9 to 7.8) to stop it from happening.
This is not nutrient related, because my nutrients keep rising probably due to the fact that I removed chaeto from the refugium. I had to dose nitrates occasionally, now nitrates are above 25.
My 2 clams stopped growing and my alk consumption fell.
Whatever is in Vibrant, it stresses the corals.
I began dosing 4 months ago and I saw a few SPS go through severe burn episodes. I have an alkalinity monitor and noticed that really minor alk spikes (0.5) burned the corals. I had to bring my alk down 1.2 dKH (from 9 to 7.8) to stop it from happening.
This is not nutrient related, because my nutrients keep rising probably due to the fact that I removed chaeto from the refugium. I had to dose nitrates occasionally, now nitrates are above 25.
My 2 clams stopped growing and my alk consumption fell.
Whatever is in Vibrant, it stresses the corals.
SliceGolfer
Well-Known Member
Why does it matter what’s in it? Will your research prevent you from using it in the future? Is the cost so high that you’ll try to make your own home brew? Will you be an advocate for the product if you learn it contains something you appreciate?
What baffles me is the response to: 1) I introduced a chemical into my reef tank (i.e. Vibrant), 2) Introduction of a foreign substance has adverse affects, 3) The Ecosystem is unstable and will take time to correct, 4) I need to learn what’s in the chemical I introduced into the reef so I can tell others how horrible that product is, and 5) Let me add another chemical to fix the affects of the prior chemical.
Sometimes sitting back and letting nature ride is the best answer to all these “problems”
What baffles me is the response to: 1) I introduced a chemical into my reef tank (i.e. Vibrant), 2) Introduction of a foreign substance has adverse affects, 3) The Ecosystem is unstable and will take time to correct, 4) I need to learn what’s in the chemical I introduced into the reef so I can tell others how horrible that product is, and 5) Let me add another chemical to fix the affects of the prior chemical.
Sometimes sitting back and letting nature ride is the best answer to all these “problems”
If you know more about the product you can use it more efficiently and prevent animal losses, both coral and fish.
At the moment all we have are the instructions of the manufacturer and a wide diversity of reports of its benefits and side effects.
At the moment all we have are the instructions of the manufacturer and a wide diversity of reports of its benefits and side effects.
please don’t continue tasting random bacterial mixtures..This post might create a bunch of grief, but whatever....
So, we know that Vibrant isn't snake oil. It actually does perform work/action on algae and water clarity. This has been proven time and time again even though some will argue one way or the other while stating that it has hurt their tanks. It's a little bit of a mixed bag, but by my account the stuff works.
With that said, I think there is much to be known or should be known about the product. I'd like to try to reduce the mystery around the product and really dig in to know what is in it. It doesn't have to be the exact recipe, but I really think we should all know more about this and really anything we put in our tanks given the amount of investments we have all made. If this has been hashed over, please let me know and close the thread.
What I know.
Back of the bottle:
95% Cultured Bacteria Blend <-Check... So, some kind of bacterium with (salt)water
1% Amino Acids (Aspartic Acid) <- Check... an α-amino acid that is used in the biosynthesis of proteins. Food for bacteria while in bottle? Has a PH of 7.4.
.5% Vinegar <- Check... Ph of 2.4. .5% vinegar solution in solution of water gives a ph of 3.58. This level of PH will prevent "bad bacteria" such as botulism.
3.5% Other Ingredients <-Check... What is this? I would think the liquid portion would be included in the 95%. So, this begs to answer this question.
I measured the salinity of Vibrant to be 65ppt or 1.05sg. Obviously higher than our reef aquariums. This makes me question which type of bacteria live in that high of a salinity. My quick research on this lead me to the phyla Cyanobacteria, Proteobacteria, Firmicutes, Actinobacteria, Spirochaetes, and Bacteroidetes.
Other properties to note: Odorless and colorless. Taste (yes I tasted) is something not only like vinegar, but chalky dry tart. It was a strange sensation before I quickly washed my mouth out. It reminded of something like a salt substitute for food. Maybe sodium chloride like or some other kind of salt.
Given the salinity and taste, it makes me wonder what that 3.5% is. I'm wondering if there is some type of synthetic algaecide in this. Being "reef safe", I would think not something made with copper. Given the taste with the salinity level, I'm thinking about some kind of algacidal salt such as Cyanuric chloride.
Anyway, I would love to hear people's thoughts on this and break this mystery of what actually Vibrant is. I do not believe that it is only a "Cultured Bacterial Blend" that is having the success in the tank that I have seen.
I've attached pictures of my tank to demonstrate my experience in a 2 week period of time.
Please share your thoughts.
They say there are multiple strains that serve different functions. "One of the strains, works to convert No3 and Po4 into biomass, which then is easily removed via protein skimming and water changes."
Whatever this strain is, I hate it. So tired of vibrant zeroing out my phosphates that I'm going to have to stop using it.
Whatever this strain is, I hate it. So tired of vibrant zeroing out my phosphates that I'm going to have to stop using it.
I think most of these products are based on processes used in the waste water industry. My guess is that it contains bacillus, and possibly an alcohol source to feed heterotrophic bacteria. All meant to breakup waste and to remove nutrients. No snakeoil, believe me, nearly all water plants over the world uses these principles.
burningmime
Well-Known Member
Possibly relevant threads; seems like it's toxic to lionfish:
www.reef2reef.com
www.reef2reef.com
Is Vibrant trying to kill my lions
I've had these lions for over 7 years, there's also another one in this tank for 8 years. I had let my 210g go and it was riddled with algae, so i clean it up and dosed Vibrant, I was amazed. After 3 weeks the tank was so clean I have to start feeding my tangs greens again. I was so impressed I...
www.reef2reef.com
Lions: Necropsy
So there is very strong evidence that Vibrance wiped out my Lion's Reef. I had 3 lions; a zebra, fu manchu, and antennata. I had used Vibrance in another tank, so I think I knew how to use it. Two days after dosing the 90g Lion's Reef, all the lions had cloudy eyes, faded color, and refused to...
www.reef2reef.com
RyanS
Community Member
Lots of he said, they say,
I'm seeing a lot of people that want to dismiss the subject and don't seem to care about the science or understanding with what makes all this stuff work. I'm just jumping back into the hobby and think it's funny the knowledge base doesn't seem to have expanded to the point I think it should have when I got out 12 years ago.
I like to reference my brewing background when talking about all this because I'm seeing many parallels. Let me introduce some thoughts. It's listed as a bacterial blend. If bacteria are isolated, defined, and understood - you can more easily predict the end result of the issue you are trying to tackle. This is very much like a flavor profile. If you have a yeast or bacteria isolate, you can more accurately predict the end product of the beer you are fermenting. I can promise you that all brewing yeast labs aren't this secretive about their products as Vibrant is.
We should know what is making up this bacterial blend. It's not about saving money, diy, or whatever else has been accused. It's about getting educated and understanding a process without regurgitating what he/she said in the past with out know. This equates to someone saying "I don't know, but I'm going to tell you". =\
We apparently have some scientists in here. I look forward to seeing what Courtney Aldrich, PhD is able to find out.
You've obviously never done any natural fermentations. PH can indicate/dictate if there is anything dangerous in a liquid. The nose knows. Lastly, I've been practicing brewing with wild yeast and bacteria for over a decade. You get more bad bacteria in your nose, ears, and mouth when you go to a lake and swim than anywhere because the PH doesn't kill off the bad stuff.
I'm seeing a lot of people that want to dismiss the subject and don't seem to care about the science or understanding with what makes all this stuff work. I'm just jumping back into the hobby and think it's funny the knowledge base doesn't seem to have expanded to the point I think it should have when I got out 12 years ago.
I like to reference my brewing background when talking about all this because I'm seeing many parallels. Let me introduce some thoughts. It's listed as a bacterial blend. If bacteria are isolated, defined, and understood - you can more easily predict the end result of the issue you are trying to tackle. This is very much like a flavor profile. If you have a yeast or bacteria isolate, you can more accurately predict the end product of the beer you are fermenting. I can promise you that all brewing yeast labs aren't this secretive about their products as Vibrant is.
We should know what is making up this bacterial blend. It's not about saving money, diy, or whatever else has been accused. It's about getting educated and understanding a process without regurgitating what he/she said in the past with out know. This equates to someone saying "I don't know, but I'm going to tell you". =\
We apparently have some scientists in here. I look forward to seeing what Courtney Aldrich, PhD is able to find out.
tehmadreefer
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Additionally you do realize the actual creator of vibrant is here, why not ask them directly!This post might create a bunch of grief, but whatever....
So, we know that Vibrant isn't snake oil. It actually does perform work/action on algae and water clarity. This has been proven time and time again even though some will argue one way or the other while stating that it has hurt their tanks. It's a little bit of a mixed bag, but by my account the stuff works.
With that said, I think there is much to be known or should be known about the product. I'd like to try to reduce the mystery around the product and really dig in to know what is in it. It doesn't have to be the exact recipe, but I really think we should all know more about this and really anything we put in our tanks given the amount of investments we have all made. If this has been hashed over, please let me know and close the thread.
What I know.
Back of the bottle:
95% Cultured Bacteria Blend <-Check... So, some kind of bacterium with (salt)water
1% Amino Acids (Aspartic Acid) <- Check... an α-amino acid that is used in the biosynthesis of proteins. Food for bacteria while in bottle? Has a PH of 7.4.
.5% Vinegar <- Check... Ph of 2.4. .5% vinegar solution in solution of water gives a ph of 3.58. This level of PH will prevent "bad bacteria" such as botulism.
3.5% Other Ingredients <-Check... What is this? I would think the liquid portion would be included in the 95%. So, this begs to answer this question.
I measured the salinity of Vibrant to be 65ppt or 1.05sg. Obviously higher than our reef aquariums. This makes me question which type of bacteria live in that high of a salinity. My quick research on this lead me to the phyla Cyanobacteria, Proteobacteria, Firmicutes, Actinobacteria, Spirochaetes, and Bacteroidetes.
Other properties to note: Odorless and colorless. Taste (yes I tasted) is something not only like vinegar, but chalky dry tart. It was a strange sensation before I quickly washed my mouth out. It reminded of something like a salt substitute for food. Maybe sodium chloride like or some other kind of salt.
Given the salinity and taste, it makes me wonder what that 3.5% is. I'm wondering if there is some type of synthetic algaecide in this. Being "reef safe", I would think not something made with copper. Given the taste with the salinity level, I'm thinking about some kind of algacidal salt such as Cyanuric chloride.
Anyway, I would love to hear people's thoughts on this and break this mystery of what actually Vibrant is. I do not believe that it is only a "Cultured Bacterial Blend" that is having the success in the tank that I have seen.
I've attached pictures of my tank to demonstrate my experience in a 2 week period of time.
Please share your thoughts.
Yeah ok, I have post-graduate degrees in science but your post is so compelling I‘m going to suggest people drink bacterial products. /sarcasm
Since some folks apparently need this, please DO NOT DRINK FISH TANK BACTERIAL ADDITIVES.
RyanS
Community Member
Because they will not say. It's been asked. So, it is our job to discover and do the analysis. What are the bacteria strains and what is that 3.5% "other" ingredients. That's the question(s).
Hermie
Valuable Member
this is a little bit of an overreaction which was the point of the humor I thought
RyanS
Community Member
That's silly. Did I say I drink it? Has anyone ever siphoned out their tank and got a mouth full of salt water?
Again... DID I SAY DRINK IT? wow.
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