Watch me kill SPS...

[wilsonline]

My lights turn on in about an hour. I send you pics. And yes, it's an eyesore! An ugly aqueon pump in the display and the UV screwed to the wall.

 

[Skep18]

My lights turn on in about an hour. I send you pics. And yes, it's an eyesore! An ugly aqueon pump in the display and the UV screwed to the wall.

Well in full disclosure, I don't think I will be doing that. The intake of a pump is no different than the water going into an overflow. They will end up in the sump whether they prefer that environment or not. At least that's what seems logical to me.

 

[Surfzone]

Well in full disclosure, I don't think I will be doing that. The intake of a pump is no different than the water going into an overflow. They will end up in the sump whether they prefer that environment or not. At least that's what seems logical to me.

I had my UV hooked up to my return line. however I have a Vectra S1 for a return and it is set at it's lowest setting and that seemed to work for me. Like I said before; my dinos where gone in a matter of days. I'm also not sure if this had a factor to it as well but I'm running a skimmer that is over sized for my tank (30 gallon system). Once the dinos where gone I took the UV off line.

 

[ScottB]

Thank you for the info.

Can you elaborate on "running UV slow"? A GPH rate?

How do you gauge bulb replacement for once a year? If used 24hr a day, replace before a year? If used 12hr a day? 6hr? Once a week?

I will say my dinos have been surviving for quite some time under the above guidance short of nutrient levels. Perhaps thats all it takes to let them remain but running UV for a year, even with a new bulb hasn't seemed to help, at least not enough.

I appreciate the information. Forgive my request for details. Just trying to understand guidance.

The general recommendation is "as slow as the manufacturer lists as minimum flow rate". You just don't want the bulb to overheat.

As to nutrients, if I let my PO4 get below ~.04 my ostreopsis will try to make a comeback. I am not sure about the nitrate lower threshold.

 

[drawman]

Wait, I just read this again. Are you saying put a pump in your DT to install a UV sterilizer? I've never heard of such a thing. I would imagine that would be a big eyesore. I would love to see tanks that actually do this.

Also, in the case of a blackout, if they don't move into dark places, how would you get them out of anywhere? If they are free swimming, I would think if a tnak had sufficient flow, they would be carried into the overflow (the highest lit area of the system, the DT water surface) and thus running a UV off your return would actually have more of a chance to effect them than running a pump in your DT.

This is exactly what I and a lot of others on this thread do run it to and from the display with a pump in the display. Eventually when you've knocked them back the hope is you can move it back to the sump.

 

[ScottB]

Well in full disclosure, I don't think I will be doing that. The intake of a pump is no different than the water going into an overflow. They will end up in the sump whether they prefer that environment or not. At least that's what seems logical to me.

I will share this anecdote. Over the past year or so, I have been expanding my basement frag system by adding new tanks. Each time I added a tank to the system, it would break out in dinos. (Sterile surfaces, diluted nutrients, bang!)

So I would dig out the UV and slap it on the affected tank, and dose PO4 and NO3 to the system. Never did the dinos bloom in the old tank, the old sump, nor the new sump.

Think of dinos as having ant like behavior versus plankton like behavior.

 

[Skep18]

This is exactly what I and a lot of others on this thread do run it to and from the display with a pump in the display. Eventually when you've knocked them back the hope is you can move it back to the sump.

I certainly am not saying that is wrong, I just would want someone to explain how a pump in the tank is any different than using the tank overflow as an intake. Both draw in tank water. Only thing I can think of is if someone were to suggest dinos can actively swim faster than an overflow can drain at the weir (which, all due respect, makes no sense). Either way, both running the pump in tank or using your return pump, both are pulling water in directly from the DT.

Also as of note, this is not in line with what professionals and companies such as Dr. Tim's or Elegant Corals have recommended either. But I am all ears if someone can explain the thinking as to why a pump must be in the tank.

EDIT: "Must" sounds a bit strong. Even an explanation as to why it might even be beneficial would be useful. As far as I can surmise, both in tank or in sump would draw water in from the DT.

 

[Skep18]

The general recommendation is "as slow as the manufacturer lists as minimum flow rate". You just don't want the bulb to overheat.

As to nutrients, if I let my PO4 get below ~.04 my ostreopsis will try to make a comeback. I am not sure about the nitrate lower threshold.

Thanks for the clarification. I know Pentair has a "Algae & Bacteria Water Flow Rate" as well as a "Protozoa Bacteria Water Flow Rate". Are dinos actually an algae or a protozoa?

Your mentioning of PO4 and NO3 levels are generally in line with what I have seen elsewhere. I am dosing to try and maintain NO3 and PO4 @ 10ppm and 0.10ppm respectively.

 

[drawman]

I certainly am not saying that is wrong, I just would want someone to explain how a pump in the tank is any different than using the tank overflow as an intake. Both draw in tank water. Only thing I can think of is if someone were to suggest dinos can actively swim faster than an overflow can drain at the weir (which, all due respect, makes no sense). Either way, both running the pump in tank or using your return pump, both are pulling water in directly from the DT.

Also as of note, this is not in line with what professionals and companies such as Dr. Tim's or Elegant Corals have recommended either. But I am all ears if someone can explain the thinking as to why a pump must be in the tank.

All of this is anecdotal for sure. I'm not sure of the mechanism but I would wonder if dinos have some partial attachment to surfaces while they are "in the water column" that keeps them from leaving the display quickly. Or if they bounce around from attachment to attachment (basically sticking on surfaces between bouncing around) which makes it take a lot longer to enter the sump. These are all guesses but they don't seem to act like plankton that completely moves with the water. I'm sure if you did a long enough blackout they would all go through the sump but with our photoperiods your mileage will vary.

 

[Skep18]

All of this is anecdotal for sure. I'm not sure of the mechanism but I would wonder if dinos have some partial attachment to surfaces while they are "in the water column" that keeps them from leaving the display quickly. Or if they bounce around from attachment to attachment (basically sticking on surfaces between bouncing around) which makes it take a lot longer to enter the sump. These are all guesses but they don't seem to act like plankton that completely moves with the water. I'm sure if you did a long enough blackout they would all go through the sump but with our photoperiods your mileage will vary.

Noted but respectfully, your in tank pump has an intake. A cross section area in which it intakes water. The overflow likewise has a similar cross section area intake. Both draw water in from the DT. My contention is there is no difference between running a pump in tank or in sump and both are effectively the same thing.

 

[Skep18]

Well, to answer my own question, are dinos an algae or protozoa, it seems that remains yet to be agreed upon by the professional realm. As cited from Encyclopedia Britannica:

The taxonomy of the group [dinoflagellates] is contentious. Historically, botanists have placed them in the algal division Pyrrophyta or Pyrrophycophyta, and zoologists have claimed them as members of the protozoan order Dinoflagellida. Although they are often considered to be algae in the division Dinoflagellata, this placement is controversial because these organisms have unique nuclei and significantly larger genomes than other eukaryotic algae.

While I don't speak in this field fluently enough to understand what all the terms are and its possible knowing these is important, but what I gathered is maybe there isn't an answer yet. With that, the best approach likely is the conservative one which would be run the UV at the lower flow rate, in-line with what @ScottB said.

 

[Skep18]

So I would dig out the UV and slap it on the affected tank, and dose PO4 and NO3 to the system. Never did the dinos bloom in the old tank, the old sump, nor the new sump.

Ah, that makes sense as to why someone would plumb it that way. If you didn't want a permanent installation, that certainly would seem more convenient.

 

[Skep18]

Im 48hr into my lights out period. I have not gone so far as to wrap the tank as my thinking is this hopefully will be enough to really set the dinos back, weakening them so that other consumers can out compete the dinos. The room they're in is pretty dark with all windows fully covered with wooden blinds. I turn the LED's on a low setting (5% blues) for a few minutes before I feed the fish twice a day. In those times I can see a big difference in the dinos. There are a few thick patches in deep corners of rock work that look to still be there but at this point, its hard to say if that's cyano or dinos. On the rocks, I am seeing what appears to be some GHA poking up. I think this is a good thing?

I've maintained my NO3 and PO4 dosing along with BioSpira daily. Vibrant is twice a week at this point. I had been doing once a week but as of last week, the dinos had gotten a good bit more agressive so I've gone back to the dosage that got rid of them last time. This time, hopefully the NO3 and PO4 dosing will make the results different than last time. MicroBacter7 is in the mail, getting here early next week.

As far as the frags go, I can only see them in in the ambient light for the most part. They look bad, lol. Likely goners. The milli went from corallite tips exposed to some pretty aggressive RTN today alone. With them being in rough shape to begin with and (if R2R is correct) the dinos releasing whatever toxins they release, I kinda expected this much. At this point, I will focus on battling the dinos and hope my zoas put up with it.


EXTRA SIDE STORY: As an aside, my second powerhead reported delivered in the mail today via UPS. To my dismay, I had no such delivery. Long story short, it was signed for by a "Nelson" and dropped at a "loading dock"... This was surprising as I know no Nelsons and my house does not have a loading dock. lol. The seller has been great thus far and is filing a claim with UPS. They say they have to give UPS 24hr to find it otherwise they will be sending me a new unit.

 

[mbmartin06]

Noted but respectfully, your in tank pump has an intake. A cross section area in which it intakes water. The overflow likewise has a similar cross section area intake. Both draw water in from the DT. My contention is there is no difference between running a pump in tank or in sump and both are effectively the same thing.

I think the theory is: (full disclosure I am often wrong) most people have socks that catch them on some level, skimmers that most likely take some away, And other forms of disposable filtration in the sump. With all of that the remaining Dino’s that make it to the UV are less than if treated directly in the tank. more bang for the buck kinda thing and diminishing them more than they reproduce.

I understand that it seems logical that all of our water goes through the sump carrying all waste at some point but does is it really? I don’t know the answer but sincerely doubt it. I would think vacuuming our tanks would be unneeded if all water and all particles made it though the filtration outside the display.

again this may be completely wrong.

 

[Skep18]

I think the theory is: (full disclosure I am often wrong) most people have socks that catch them on some level, skimmers that most likely take some away, And other forms of disposable filtration in the sump. With all of that the remaining Dino’s that make it to the UV are less than if treated directly in the tank. more bang for the buck kinda thing and diminishing them more than they reproduce.

I understand that it seems logical that all of our water goes through the sump carrying all waste at some point but does is it really? I don’t know the answer but sincerely doubt it. I would think vacuuming our tanks would be unneeded if all water and all particles made it though the filtration outside the display.

again this may be completely wrong.

I'll buy some of that. Having filtering beforehand would reduce the number of dinos seen by the UV. That said, I guess I wonder how much all that really matters. Something along the lines of "diminishing returns". You could optimize it all but perhaps 50% effective is still plenty to work? Dunno. But good point made.

Regarding detritus in the sand, I think for anything to be potentially effected by the UV, it would need to be suspended in the water column. Running "dirty" water through the sump and returning "clean" water to the tank just does a continuous job at diluting the "dirty" tank water. But all that said, a pump can only process whats suspended in the water column.

All good discussion. I suppose I will find out soon enough if my efforts were sufficient or of I should have heeded some of the more detailed advice to really get rid of these things.

 

[Marc2952]

I will share this anecdote. Over the past year or so, I have been expanding my basement frag system by adding new tanks. Each time I added a tank to the system, it would break out in dinos. (Sterile surfaces, diluted nutrients, bang!)

So I would dig out the UV and slap it on the affected tank, and dose PO4 and NO3 to the system. Never did the dinos bloom in the old tank, the old sump, nor the new sump.

Think of dinos as having ant like behavior versus plankton like behavior.

I get the same thing once my PO4 vets below 0.04 aswell, perhaps thats due to the hanna error window of 0.05+/-.

 

[ScottB]

I get the same thing once my PO4 vets below 0.04 aswell, perhaps thats due to the hanna error window of 0.05+/-.

Yeah in my frag system the threshold for a dino bloom is even higher like .06 or so. I keep my PO4 and NO2 dosers at the ready all the time. My display has to get much closer to zero before it shows any dinos.

 

[Skep18]

I get the same thing once my PO4 vets below 0.04 aswell, perhaps thats due to the hanna error window of 0.05+/-.

Yeah in my frag system the threshold for a dino bloom is even higher like .06 or so. I keep my PO4 and NO2 dosers at the ready all the time. My display has to get much closer to zero before it shows any dinos.

I think thus far with my venture into this hobby I have under appreciated the NO3 and PO4 scrutiny required. I feel like so much attention is placed on ALK and CAL along with other things, perhaps these get overlooked. Also, perhaps hobbyist test kits are just not precise enough to be able to monitor it quantitatively with any real precision. That said, should this prove to be my big underlying issue, its a real shame it doesn't get more focus. But perhaps maintaining these levels in an aquarium just doesn't sell products like flow and lighting, lol. That and maybe with "yesterday's reefing" things weren't as clean and keeping NO3 and PO4 levels was a given.

 

[ScottB]

I think thus far with my venture into this hobby I have under appreciated the NO3 and PO4 scrutiny required. I feel like so much attention is placed on ALK and CAL along with other things, perhaps these get overlooked. Also, perhaps hobbyist test kits are just not precise enough to be able to monitor it quantitatively with any real precision. That said, should this prove to be my big underlying issue, its a real shame it doesn't get more focus. But perhaps maintaining these levels in an aquarium just doesn't sell products like flow and lighting, lol. That and maybe with "yesterday's reefing" things weren't as clean and keeping NO3 and PO4 levels was a given.

Every other day or so, I test three things:
ALK with Salifert
NO3 with NYOS
PO4 with Hanna ULR

If my APEX salinity is moving I will calibrate and test with refractometer (VeeGee). The most difficult is the Hanna. The cuvettes have to be impeccably clean. I wear nitrile gloves when handling them.

The other numbers really just don't tend to move much if any. Maybe every few months I will run a wider set of tests, as I do seem to consume more K and Iodine than I replace with WCs. I will also send off an ICP if things seem "off".

 

[wilsonline]

I hope Neptune or any other company comes up with something to test PO4, NO3, and maybe K & iodine. I mean an automatic test just like the trident that you can check through the Apex.