What a horrible statement!

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Lol... how is Daphne? I can assure you she meant no offence. She has been on a lifelong mission to dissuade hobbyists from keeping nems. The vast majority sadly do die and it's safe to say that ALL nems eventually perish in captivity, compared to in the wild (the disclaimer is that they can live for hundreds of years in the wild, as no-one has had a tank running for more than about 60 years, it's safe to say not a single captive nem has died of old age).

I certainly agree that the vast majority of captured wild anemones do die an untimely death (and that may well be reason to not "try" them), but I have never accepted the widespread and unproven (that I have seen) assertion that wild anemones live for hundreds of years. Some might live that long in the wild (also generally unproven), but that definitely does not prove that most of them live that long.

What evidence is there that wild anemones live for hundreds of years?

 

[atoll]

Warming oceans could be a potential hazard to wild tropical anemones, as could ocean acidification. I don't know the specifics on that, however. Another risk in the wild is predation. Some turtles have have been known to eat anemones. But my original point was that the conditions that occur in a tank during a power outage will almost never happen all at the same time on a wild reef. However, those failures occur all to commonly in captive aquaria.

Not captive issues just non captive issues and dangers. So although some anemones may live for hundreds of years others may live a short life due to natural hazards in the ocean.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I certainly agree that the vast majority of captured wild anemones do die an untimely death (and that may well be reason to not "try" them), but I have never accepted the widespread and unproven (that I have seen) assertion that wild anemones live for hundreds of years. Some might live that long in the wild (also generally unproven), but that definitely does not prove that most of them live that long.

What evidence is there that wild anemones live for hundreds of years?

Great point Randy... I have to say that the assumption that anemones live for hundreds of years, is just that, an assumption as far as I know. Based on the knowledge that cnidarians are, in theory at least, immortal (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4133289/).

Thus, the assumption is that if an animal is immortal, death is only caused by environmental factors, e.g. storms, conditions changing, predation etc. I don't have any data on the odds of an anemone dying within a given year, but we can hypothesise. We know the odds of a human dying within a given year are, roughly speaking, a thousand to one (assuming the subject doesn't age, like a sea anemone). If for a moment we assume the same for a sea anemone (it is likely higher, but population density of both the anemone and any predators is likely to play a factor in the distribution of the odds) then it can be safely assumed that the average sea anemone will live for well over 100 years.

True, the odds of an anemone dying is probably higher than 1/1000 (I doubt they have healthcare plans) but even at relatively low numbers, the odds of a single anemone within a population of 1000s of adults surviving for more than 100 years is relatively high.

 

[Gweeds1980]

Check it out some of the Earthly so-called weeds that grow outdoors are some of the prettiest flowers and plants on Earth! [emoji16]

I agree, my point is that the term weed is subjective, not objective. If you were trying to have a reef full of GHA, aiptasia and bryopsis, the rarest acro on earth would be a 'weed'... it doenst mean that everyone will consider that acro a weed, it's just that in that specific setting, the owner will.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I recently bought an anemone that I cannot identify. There is a post about it if anybody is interested in helping. I will attached a vid for a quick view. After searching and searching and searching I came across a college biology Professor who specialized in anemones and has written multiple books on the subject. I decided it might be worth a shot to contact this professor and see if she might help.

No I probably should have had an idea that she might not be able to help me because of the distinct differences between scientists and hobbyists. But I thought even getting the scientific name would be a great help. And to be a hundred percent honest I was half thinking I would not get a response anyway.
To my surprise I got a response the very next morning. Turns out she was retired but was willing to give me her perspective anyway. Most of it was exactly what I should have thought it would be. "I have no idea about common names I only go by scientific names and I cannot help." That was served up to me with a nice story about what makes common name so horrible. She said she has seen anemones similar to the pictures I sent but could not identify the specific name. That was all fine and dandy until the very last paragraph of her letter which bothered me tremendously.
"Best wishes. Most tropical anemones do not do well in captivity - the ones that do are the ones we regard as weeds and want to be rid of! That is one reason I am not an aquarist."

My anemones are doing just fine. All 9 of them now. Some more than four or five years old. And they are beautiful. I have to admit I was a bit offended by her statement. I sent her back another email thanking her for her attempt at help and explaining my love for anemones and a bunch of pictures of my babies. LOL

The only thing I can hope is that she is a bit out of touch being that she's already retired. Do you guys think that current biologists would look at the aquarium Hobby in this way? Not that they are offended by it because I could totally see that in their line of work. But that we only breed the weeds. And that anemonies do not do well in captivity.

Just figured I'd share and see if you guys had any opinions on this.

In short, yes! I am a biologist by training, but not by trade... I am still in touch with some of my post-grad colleagues, some I count as my closest friends, but all are dismissive of any attempt by a 'muggle' (their term, not mine!) to get involved at the sharp end of the science. They do think that the fact that they have a PhD means they are somehow superior, morally, to the rest of us. I upset them sometimes for fun

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If I look around a mature forest, there are often lots of babies and very few adults.

The "average" age of the adults might be 100 or 200 years.

Most of those babies will die out within a few years.

So the typical lifespan might be only 5 years despite some lucky ones reaching a ripe old age.

 

[Gweeds1980]

I certainly agree that the vast majority of captured wild anemones do die an untimely death (and that may well be reason to not "try" them), but I have never accepted the widespread and unproven (that I have seen) assertion that wild anemones live for hundreds of years. Some might live that long in the wild (also generally unproven), but that definitely does not prove that most of them live that long.

What evidence is there that wild anemones live for hundreds of years?

Just to add to this... I do keep nems. Love them. I have 2 species in my reef... RBTA in the DT and aiptasia in my fuge lol.

 

[Gweeds1980]

If I look around a mature forest, there are often lots of babies and very few adults.

The "average" age of the adults might be 100 or 200 years.

Most of those babies will die out within a few years.

So the typical lifespan might be only 5 years despite some lucky ones reaching a ripe old age.

Agreed... I did state nems 'can' live for 100s of years in my original post... I guess the point I was making is that nems in the wild might be 100s of years old... if we had reef tanks that had been running for 100s of years, we would also have captive nems that were 100s of years old. I do 'get' Daphnes point, but she should compare the success of keeping nems in captivity with a wild reef that's only 60 years old... I bet the hobby would be winning hands down then...

 

[SnailQueen]

I would suggest -- for this or any other aquarium species related issues -- try contacting faculty at a university that has aquaculture degrees. University of Florida (where I have done graduate work in aquaculture) and University of Hawaii come to mind off the top of my head. The faculty that are interested in aquaculture generally seem more receptive to those of us in the aquarium hobby and more willing to help or bounce around ideas. UF runs their own aquaculture facility, and I think it's either UCF or USF that has contacts at ORA. From my experience, the aquaculture people are way more interested in our hobby than straight biologists might be.

 

[Zack K]

On a side note. Your anemone looks to be a hybrid between a purple LTA and a curly cue. I saw one like this at a LFS and he said he took it out of his tank full of different nems.

 

[popsbjd]

If I look around a mature forest, there are often lots of babies and very few adults.

The "average" age of the adults might be 100 or 200 years.

Most of those babies will die out within a few years.

So the typical lifespan might be only 5 years despite some lucky ones reaching a ripe old age.

By this logic, the average lifespan of wild fish is fertilized egg or fry. Does that mean that if a clown lives for 3 months in a tank we are beating nature?

 

[PlanB]

Warming oceans could be a potential hazard to wild tropical anemones, as could ocean acidification. I don't know the specifics on that, however. Another risk in the wild is predation. Some turtles have have been known to eat anemones. But my original point was that the conditions that occur in a tank during a power outage will almost never happen all at the same time on a wild reef. However, those failures occur all to commonly in captive aquaria.

Oh, but it is happening on the wild reefs. Here are the specifics on that - http://www.chasingcoral.com/

 

[mort]

Agreed... I did state nems 'can' live for 100s of years in my original post... I guess the point I was making is that nems in the wild might be 100s of years old... if we had reef tanks that had been running for 100s of years, we would also have captive nems that were 100s of years old. I do 'get' Daphnes point, but she should compare the success of keeping nems in captivity with a wild reef that's only 60 years old... I bet the hobby would be winning hands down then...

I think the longevity of anemones in tanks is only part of the reason for not recommending them. Imo it's the mortality in getting them from sea to tank and the acclimation period which is more of a problem.
I also remember reading years ago how the removal of clownfish from the wild was really impacting on the nem populations due to increased predation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

By this logic, the average lifespan of wild fish is fertilized egg or fry. Does that mean that if a clown lives for 3 months in a tank we are beating nature?

The fact is the fact. What you choose to do with it (e.g., how you interpret it) is up to you.

 

[PatW]

If I look around a mature forest, there are often lots of babies and very few adults.

The "average" age of the adults might be 100 or 200 years.

Most of those babies will die out within a few years.

So the typical lifespan might be only 5 years despite some lucky ones reaching a ripe old age.

That is true. Age structures in wild populations follow characteristic curves. Fish, which usually produce huge numbers of eggs, have an extremely short life expectancy but an impressively long maximum life span.

With anemones, age can be problematic. Is a captive anemone that was produced by fission the age of the first dividing anemone in the sequence, or does the clock reset at zero? Our notions of life span pretty much only apply to sexually reproducing organisms.

 

[bblumberg]

I recently bought an anemone that I cannot identify. There is a post about it if anybody is interested in helping. I will attached a vid for a quick view. After searching and searching and searching I came across a college biology Professor who specialized in anemones and has written multiple books on the subject. I decided it might be worth a shot to contact this professor and see if she might help.

No I probably should have had an idea that she might not be able to help me because of the distinct differences between scientists and hobbyists. But I thought even getting the scientific name would be a great help. And to be a hundred percent honest I was half thinking I would not get a response anyway.
To my surprise I got a response the very next morning. Turns out she was retired but was willing to give me her perspective anyway. Most of it was exactly what I should have thought it would be. "I have no idea about common names I only go by scientific names and I cannot help." That was served up to me with a nice story about what makes common name so horrible. She said she has seen anemones similar to the pictures I sent but could not identify the specific name. That was all fine and dandy until the very last paragraph of her letter which bothered me tremendously.
"Best wishes. Most tropical anemones do not do well in captivity - the ones that do are the ones we regard as weeds and want to be rid of! That is one reason I am not an aquarist."

My anemones are doing just fine. All 9 of them now. Some more than four or five years old. And they are beautiful. I have to admit I was a bit offended by her statement. I sent her back another email thanking her for her attempt at help and explaining my love for anemones and a bunch of pictures of my babies. LOL

The only thing I can hope is that she is a bit out of touch being that she's already retired. Do you guys think that current biologists would look at the aquarium Hobby in this way? Not that they are offended by it because I could totally see that in their line of work. But that we only breed the weeds. And that anemonies do not do well in captivity.

Just figured I'd share and see if you guys had any opinions on this.

As a University professor myself, I deplore the comments that you received. They were condescending, uninformative and the type of silly prattle that gives academics a bad reputation. Unless the ancient professor spent her entire career at a private university, she was likely supported (salary, grants or both) by tax dollars. Those of us who are have the implied obligation to give something back to those who support us. Your question was reasonable and should have received a thoughtful response. She could have replied what genus and species she thought your anemone might be and then something like, "sorry, I am not up on the common names for these anemones". On the other hand, any bona fide expert should have some idea of what are the common names for the creatures they study... Please tell the professor in question that in my opinion it is good she is retired and not passing her poisonous attitudes to the next generation of scientists.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is true. Age structures in wild populations follow characteristic curves. Fish, which usually produce huge numbers of eggs, have an extremely short life expectancy but an impressively long maximum life span.

With anemones, age can be problematic. Is a captive anemone that was produced by fission the age of the first dividing anemone in the sequence, or does the clock reset at zero? Our notions of life span pretty much only apply to sexually reproducing organisms.

Worse still, there's no known way to look at an anemone and tell how old it is, even when it did grow from an egg..

Years ago, Ron Shimek was touting how slowly the big carpet anemones grow, and the big ones in the wild "must" be very old. He told us we were killing anemones that had been around for decades.

That is, of course, an unsubstantiated claim. Many of us (myself included) have gotten small carpet anemones and had them grow to larger sized (more than 15" across) in just a few years.

Such a determination might be possible in the wild, but I have never seen any scientific paper that tracked an individual wild anemone over time to really see how rapidly it grew (could be I never looked in the right places, but the closest I found was one that tracked a big grid for anemones, but when one disappeared it was never clear if it died or moved to a new location).

While they may grow differently in aquaria, how fast they can grow is a simple but potentially important contribution from captive husbandry.

FWIW, it seems scientists are mostly fixated on coral growth rates, and not as much is done to study anemones.

 

[Seanb1]

You just figuring out that college professors are out of touch ?
As soon as I seen the word professor I laughed.
I'm suprised she didn't send you a picture of an anemone wearing a ***** hat .

 

[bblumberg]

I certainly agree that the vast majority of captured wild anemones do die an untimely death (and that may well be reason to not "try" them), but I have never accepted the widespread and unproven (that I have seen) assertion that wild anemones live for hundreds of years. Some might live that long in the wild (also generally unproven), but that definitely does not prove that most of them live that long.

What evidence is there that wild anemones live for hundreds of years?

This gets to the very nature of individuality. Any plant or animal that is capable of asexual reproduction has the possibility to be immortal. For example, I started with 1 BTA. I now have 4 from splitting. Let's say I give one to you, one to my daughter and one to someone else. Now there are progeny of the same anemone in 4 different places. Let's further stipulate that each of the recipients passes some of the progeny they get to others. At some point there will be many anemones when once there was only one. Any sequencing of the genomes of these animals would produce an identical, or nearly identical result. Absent records of the distribution of these animals, how does one tell them apart? How would I distinguish my starting anemone from the one it originated from? Unless all of these animals die in captivity, one could easily argue that the original is still alive however long it was from the date it was first taken from an ocean somewhere. How could you know how many times that ancestral anemone split off from its own ancestor and hence how old it was?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How could you know how many times that ancestral anemone split off from its own ancestor and hence how old it was?

I agree with that, certainly, but I would point out that most clownfish host anemones do not split, or very rarely do so.

I believe the working assumption for many of these species (say, S. gigantea) is that most anemones you see in the wild or in a tank came from sexual reproduction and have not ever split.