What kills a Duncan?

JoJosReef

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
7,162
Reaction score
19,343
Location
Orange County, CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Had a few disheartening setbacks lately, the most recent being the loss of my Duncan who had been doing so well. I don't know why it started pulling its tentacles in and shrinking away, but perhaps you all can sleuth out the cause of death.

Some clues that may lead to the answer, but first, my parameters (historically):

LFS-bought Red Sea Coral Pro water, changed 10-20% 2 times most weeks, but at least once a week-
SG: 1.026
Alk: 11.5 (Salifert)
pH: 7.8 (API)
Ca: 430-440 (Salifert)
Mg: 1260 (Salifert)
NH3: 0.25 (API, effectively 0)
NO2: 0 (API)
NO3: 5-10ppm (API)
PO4: 0-0.03, but only recently started testing (Salifert)
Temp: 77, set by Inkbird +/- 1

Clues:
1. Changes in lighting: I started with the Fluval Marine 3.0 LED bar directly on top of my Fluval EVO 13.5g. The Duncan was placed approx. top of the bottom third of the tank. Light settings was heavy blues and 30-50% on whites, varying settings and schedule over time while I tinkered. Then, I added another LED bar since the feedback on the Fluval LED was so negative (i.e. not powerful enough). The second bar came from 21LED and was a ReefbarPro Blue Heavy bar. I don't have actual PAR measurements, but I know that the 21LED bar puts out much more PAR than the Fluval LED (compared using Photone android app), and it has the superior 3watt LEDs. Again, lighting schedules and intensities have varied over time and between algae battles. There have been no indications of bleaching.

2. SG/Alk: It appears my LFS has had several recent batches (over past month) where SG was 1.025 instead of 1.026, and the ALK was more in the range of 10.5 than 11.5, so lately, the baseline ALK and SG has been lower (Ca more on the 430 end than the 440 end)

3. Alk spike: I test Alk at least twice a week before my weekly and midweek water changes. I noticed during one WC that the Alk spiked to 13.9 in mid-Dec then down to 10.5 two days after WC. Always the possibility of measurement error, so I wasn't too fussed.

4. Feeding: I fed the Duncan roughly every other day with mysis shrimp. However, I did feed it a few times with brine/spirulina, and its position in the tank at times causes the pellet food I give the clownpigs to fall onto it, and I have seen it close up and swallow the pellets. I have felt that I may be overfeeding the Duncan, but found it hard to resist since it took to the food so readily. It didn't eat anything for a while, though.

5. Coral aggression: A torch was placed above the Duncan and it had two algae-stressed small zoa plugs next to it, an alveopora and a rhodactis below it. I didn't see any overt displays of coral aggression, although the RBTA I had did take a stroll and give it a hug once.

6. Flow: I changed the return pump twice to stronger return flow (now Sicce 1.0), and have a MagTool powerhead that has been moved all around trying to figure out the best flow. The Duncan has almost always been in low to moderate flow.

7. Vacation: 4-day trip, came back to dead Duncan. The hammer in the pic below was already in bad shape from BJD and not recovering, but the Duncan was a surprise. Before leaving for vacation, the Duncan was pulling its polyps in for most of the day, so it was already showing signs of a poor outcome. The housesitter fed the fish every day and refilled the ATO bottle with distilled water, but didn't touch the corals.

8. Nitrate/Phosphates bottoming out: Nitrates started dropping recently, first to 2.5 consistently and then finally to zero on API test kit. I only recently started measuring phosphates and they have been 0 or 0.03 every time.

9. Treatment for bryopsis AND brown jelly disease: was informed that the hammer (below) had BJD and advised to treat with cipro. Meanwhile, bryopsis ferns and GHA were starting to build up, so I started both Fluc + Cipro, which was added on top of weekly 1mL Vibrant that I had started a few weeks earlier (maybe mid-late november). The spread of BJD stopped (but still too late) and none of the other corals seemed affected by the treatments at the start. The Duncan symptoms began toward the end of the Fluc/Cipro treatment.

Placement and coral neighbors (green Duncan all closed up on right hand side below clownpig):
IMG_20211220_125938687_HDR.jpg


Early signs of stress, folding in on one side:
IMG_20211221_080539670.jpg


Pre-vacation, all polyps retracted (disregard my poor hammer, may it rest in peace):
IMG_20211225_234545134_HDR~2.jpg


Thoughts? One cause in particular? Combination of everything? I am hoping to get insight to improve so that current and future corals don't suffer and end the same way.

Thank you all for the help. This community really does make it easier to keep it up, despite the setbacks.
 

Twoddler

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 22, 2020
Messages
395
Reaction score
748
Location
Accrington
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
BJD will certainly kill your Duncan and any Euphyllia you have unless treated properly.

Stability could also be a problem, how old is the tank? Sand looks clean.

Patience is key to a stable tank, if your adding all sorts of chemicals you,ll never achieve a stable tank especially an evo

I have a Duncan in my evo under stock light, no3 15 - 20 Hanna p04 0.05 Hanna, 10% weekly waterchange, alk is around 7.7, same as the salt I use ( If I have a problem I can do a quick water change, without to many swings )
 

attiland

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
2,594
Reaction score
4,800
Location
United Kingdom
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Had a few disheartening setbacks lately, the most recent being the loss of my Duncan who had been doing so well. I don't know why it started pulling its tentacles in and shrinking away, but perhaps you all can sleuth out the cause of death.

Some clues that may lead to the answer, but first, my parameters (historically):

LFS-bought Red Sea Coral Pro water, changed 10-20% 2 times most weeks, but at least once a week-
SG: 1.026
Alk: 11.5 (Salifert)
pH: 7.8 (API)
Ca: 430-440 (Salifert)
Mg: 1260 (Salifert)
NH3: 0.25 (API, effectively 0)
NO2: 0 (API)
NO3: 5-10ppm (API)
PO4: 0-0.03, but only recently started testing (Salifert)
Temp: 77, set by Inkbird +/- 1

Clues:
1. Changes in lighting: I started with the Fluval Marine 3.0 LED bar directly on top of my Fluval EVO 13.5g. The Duncan was placed approx. top of the bottom third of the tank. Light settings was heavy blues and 30-50% on whites, varying settings and schedule over time while I tinkered. Then, I added another LED bar since the feedback on the Fluval LED was so negative (i.e. not powerful enough). The second bar came from 21LED and was a ReefbarPro Blue Heavy bar. I don't have actual PAR measurements, but I know that the 21LED bar puts out much more PAR than the Fluval LED (compared using Photone android app), and it has the superior 3watt LEDs. Again, lighting schedules and intensities have varied over time and between algae battles. There have been no indications of bleaching.

2. SG/Alk: It appears my LFS has had several recent batches (over past month) where SG was 1.025 instead of 1.026, and the ALK was more in the range of 10.5 than 11.5, so lately, the baseline ALK and SG has been lower (Ca more on the 430 end than the 440 end)

3. Alk spike: I test Alk at least twice a week before my weekly and midweek water changes. I noticed during one WC that the Alk spiked to 13.9 in mid-Dec then down to 10.5 two days after WC. Always the possibility of measurement error, so I wasn't too fussed.

4. Feeding: I fed the Duncan roughly every other day with mysis shrimp. However, I did feed it a few times with brine/spirulina, and its position in the tank at times causes the pellet food I give the clownpigs to fall onto it, and I have seen it close up and swallow the pellets. I have felt that I may be overfeeding the Duncan, but found it hard to resist since it took to the food so readily. It didn't eat anything for a while, though.

5. Coral aggression: A torch was placed above the Duncan and it had two algae-stressed small zoa plugs next to it, an alveopora and a rhodactis below it. I didn't see any overt displays of coral aggression, although the RBTA I had did take a stroll and give it a hug once.

6. Flow: I changed the return pump twice to stronger return flow (now Sicce 1.0), and have a MagTool powerhead that has been moved all around trying to figure out the best flow. The Duncan has almost always been in low to moderate flow.

7. Vacation: 4-day trip, came back to dead Duncan. The hammer in the pic below was already in bad shape from BJD and not recovering, but the Duncan was a surprise. Before leaving for vacation, the Duncan was pulling its polyps in for most of the day, so it was already showing signs of a poor outcome. The housesitter fed the fish every day and refilled the ATO bottle with distilled water, but didn't touch the corals.

8. Nitrate/Phosphates bottoming out: Nitrates started dropping recently, first to 2.5 consistently and then finally to zero on API test kit. I only recently started measuring phosphates and they have been 0 or 0.03 every time.

9. Treatment for bryopsis AND brown jelly disease: was informed that the hammer (below) had BJD and advised to treat with cipro. Meanwhile, bryopsis ferns and GHA were starting to build up, so I started both Fluc + Cipro, which was added on top of weekly 1mL Vibrant that I had started a few weeks earlier (maybe mid-late november). The spread of BJD stopped (but still too late) and none of the other corals seemed affected by the treatments at the start. The Duncan symptoms began toward the end of the Fluc/Cipro treatment.

Placement and coral neighbors (green Duncan all closed up on right hand side below clownpig):
IMG_20211220_125938687_HDR.jpg


Early signs of stress, folding in on one side:
IMG_20211221_080539670.jpg


Pre-vacation, all polyps retracted (disregard my poor hammer, may it rest in peace):
IMG_20211225_234545134_HDR~2.jpg


Thoughts? One cause in particular? Combination of everything? I am hoping to get insight to improve so that current and future corals don't suffer and end the same way.

Thank you all for the help. This community really does make it easier to keep it up, despite the setbacks.
Your corals are hungry and Duncan in my tank also the first to show parameters swings stabilise your parameters

no3 should be higher
Po4 should be higher
Alk too high
Mg is lowish
 

Mr. Mojo Rising

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 14, 2021
Messages
5,795
Reaction score
6,451
Location
Toronto
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I dont have experience with brown jelly disease, so I cant say if its that or not.

Besides that, personally, I dont see anything in your post that would kill the duncan so fast. They are pretty easy going, hardy corals that can accept small parameter changes and can accept "less than perfect water", and they can acclimate to stronger light.

you mention that you use API test kits, if you want to keep corals, you will need better test kits, API is not reliable at all

With that said, your tank does look rather new, and there are some instabilities in new water that our test kits cant test for. If it is a new tank, then you should take this as a sign that your tank in not ready yet for corals, hold out a little bit longer and practice husbandry before buying more corals.
 
OP
OP
JoJosReef

JoJosReef

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
7,162
Reaction score
19,343
Location
Orange County, CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Theres brown jelly disease on that hammer, it does spread very rapidly to other corals. Could be the cause.
Thanks! Ran an 8-day course of ciproflixacin, 2 days over the recommendation in the BJD/cipro thread. I noted some browning in my candy cane skeletons that hasn't spread further, but not on the Duncan skeleton.
 
OP
OP
JoJosReef

JoJosReef

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
7,162
Reaction score
19,343
Location
Orange County, CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
BJD will certainly kill your Duncan and any Euphyllia you have unless treated properly.

Stability could also be a problem, how old is the tank? Sand looks clean.

Patience is key to a stable tank, if your adding all sorts of chemicals you,ll never achieve a stable tank especially an evo

I have a Duncan in my evo under stock light, no3 15 - 20 Hanna p04 0.05 Hanna, 10% weekly waterchange, alk is around 7.7, same as the salt I use ( If I have a problem I can do a quick water change, without to many swings )
Tank is 3 mo old, so still quite young. Was getting a bit too brave after 2 months where parameters appeared to be very stable.

Right now just trying to stave off an algae (GHA) take-over until my shipment of Tampa Bay Satlwater maricultured rock and sand arrive, which I am hoping will inject some beneficial biodiversity to compete with the nuisance microalgae--then may add some display macro down the line. Will wean chemicals beforehand.
 
OP
OP
JoJosReef

JoJosReef

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
7,162
Reaction score
19,343
Location
Orange County, CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Your corals are hungry and Duncan in my tank also the first to show parameters swings stabilise your parameters

no3 should be higher
Po4 should be higher
Alk too high
Mg is lowish
I began adding NeoNitrate and Flourish Phosphate after testing every evening. Currently at ~7.5ppm NO3 and adding 0.1ppm PO4 but it's going down to 0-0.03 by next evening. Never considered adding Mg, but could add to my water carboys to have higher levels at water change. No idea what to do about Alk, but I understand that Red Sea Coral Salt is meant to be a bit on the high side.

Thanks!
 

Idech

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 21, 2021
Messages
3,347
Reaction score
2,982
Location
Canada
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I had my Duncans in a similar spot as yours in my Evo. Pump was also at the exact same spot and the duncans were doing fairly well. So I don’t think that the location was the problem.

I’ve since transferred them to my bigger tank and they are doing even better. The only difference, besides the size, is that I have an ATO and I am dosing All for reef.
 

TheDragonsReef

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
1,729
Reaction score
3,200
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The alk swings would be the most likely to me, and 0 nitrates could hurt it over a period of time. So both happening at the same time and then both being rapidly adjusted back is for sure a death sentence. I would also recommend working your way slowly to lower alk. I tried running a tank at 11-12 dkh and could never keep lps in that tank until i brought it below 10. Now i just keep all my tanks at 7.5-8 and don't have issues with any coral.
 
OP
OP
JoJosReef

JoJosReef

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
7,162
Reaction score
19,343
Location
Orange County, CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I dont have experience with brown jelly disease, so I cant say if its that or not.

Besides that, personally, I dont see anything in your post that would kill the duncan so fast. They are pretty easy going, hardy corals that can accept small parameter changes and can accept "less than perfect water", and they can acclimate to stronger light.

you mention that you use API test kits, if you want to keep corals, you will need better test kits, API is not reliable at all

With that said, your tank does look rather new, and there are some instabilities in new water that our test kits cant test for. If it is a new tank, then you should take this as a sign that your tank in not ready yet for corals, hold out a little bit longer and practice husbandry before buying more corals.
Got some red Sea tests and will see how those work. Tank is still new, just got overconfident when everything was looking great for a while and got through diatoms without much fuss.

Unfortunately, went a bit overboard with the Xmas livesales and have a bunch of pending coral pickups for this tank and upcoming office tank...
 
OP
OP
JoJosReef

JoJosReef

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
7,162
Reaction score
19,343
Location
Orange County, CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The alk swings would be the most likely to me, and 0 nitrates could hurt it over a period of time. So both happening at the same time and then both being rapidly adjusted back is for sure a death sentence. I would also recommend working your way slowly to lower alk. I tried running a tank at 11-12 dkh and could never keep lps in that tank until i brought it below 10. Now i just keep all my tanks at 7.5-8 and don't have issues with any coral.
This would require that I change my salt, right? Res Sea Coral Pro comes at higher dkh, I understand. This is complicated, because I buy my water from my LFS and will not be installing any rodi system ti make my own. Perhaps I will just have to scale back on the LPS in this tank. My one-head blasto just popped out two new heads and the alveopora looks lovely, so hopefully it isn't the case with all LPS. Would the higher Alk also req higher Ca/Mg/pH to work well?
 
OP
OP
JoJosReef

JoJosReef

5000 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 27, 2021
Messages
7,162
Reaction score
19,343
Location
Orange County, CA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The bjd is almost certainly to blame. Duncan's are an early warning coral.
Hopefully all BJD eradicated now after an 8-day cipro course. I have more cipro if any further signs of BJD show. I'm watching my new torch very closely.
 

TheDragonsReef

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
1,729
Reaction score
3,200
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
This would require that I change my salt, right? Res Sea Coral Pro comes at higher dkh, I understand. This is complicated, because I buy my water from my LFS and will not be installing any rodi system ti make my own. Perhaps I will just have to scale back on the LPS in this tank. My one-head blasto just popped out two new heads and the alveopora looks lovely, so hopefully it isn't the case with all LPS. Would the higher Alk also req higher Ca/Mg/pH to work well?
Yes i run red sea blue bucket, it mixes at 7.5-8dkh. And when getting water from the lfs that does make it harder.

And i still had plenty of corals doing well at high alk, it was my euphyllia and duncans that didn't like it. I did run elevated ca and mg as well when i did it.
 

tvrtim

New Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 12, 2022
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Location
Verwood
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
BJD will certainly kill your Duncan and any Euphyllia you have unless treated properly.

Stability could also be a problem, how old is the tank? Sand looks clean.

Patience is key to a stable tank, if your adding all sorts of chemicals you,ll never achieve a stable tank especially an evo

I have a Duncan in my evo under stock light, no3 15 - 20 Hanna p04 0.05 Hanna, 10% weekly waterchange, alk is around 7.7, same as the salt I use ( If I have a problem I can do a quick water change, without to many swings )
Question, I have a stock light on the fluval Evo and my Duncan is struggling… what setting do you use (white, white and blue, or just blue)? Thanks
 

Twoddler

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 22, 2020
Messages
395
Reaction score
748
Location
Accrington
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Question, I have a stock light on the fluval Evo and my Duncan is struggling… what setting do you use (white, white and blue, or just blue)? Thanks
I'm not on a timer, pretty much random, blue first couple of hours, then white, last couple of hours blue, so that's about 2 hours blue, 4 hours white and final 2 hours blue
 

Algae invading algae: Have you had unwanted algae in your good macroalgae?

  • I regularly have unwanted algae in my macroalgae.

    Votes: 49 35.3%
  • I occasionally have unwanted algae in my macroalgae.

    Votes: 29 20.9%
  • I rarely have unwanted algae in my macroalgae.

    Votes: 11 7.9%
  • I never have unwanted algae in my macroalgae.

    Votes: 10 7.2%
  • I don’t have macroalgae.

    Votes: 36 25.9%
  • Other.

    Votes: 4 2.9%
Back
Top