when are fish truly captive bred

[jason.kennedy.98478]

as there is no registration service for fish such as the AKC or the TICA at what point are fish truly captive bread? take the laberdudle and the bengal for dog and cat lovers respectively, sure you can get a lab and a puddle, or an asian leopard cat and a domestic short hair and make a F1 labradudle and bengal respectively but its not until you get into the F4 and F5 generations that they can be considered SBT (stud book transitional) and registered.

so where is this line drawn for fish, while an F1 fish is captive bred from wile stock and an F2 would be from two F1 fish, is a F2 fish truly enough to be considered captive bred or do we need to progress to further generations to truly close the loop?

further more should an organisation like the AKC and TICA be formed for the breeding of fish and the maintenance of the definitions of different phenotypes and hybrids as they are discovered/made?

may just be a thought experiment but one i was pondering

@chad vossen #reefsquad

 

[Flippers4pups]

I believe it’s done to some degree with very rare fish species. They can come with certs of “captive” bred.

Claims of captive bred fish are on a whole taken at face value, but species like clowns are well known in the hobby to be almost exclusively captive bred now. Virtually all of them you see now are captive bred.

 

[Tamberav]

uhh.. no thanks :) A lot of those registries (looking at you AKC) ruin breeds. So many genetic issues added to what was once wonderful working breeds.

Also a 'f1' fish is a lot different to keep than a EG bengal. Ask me how I know ;Cat

I just can't imagine having to send papers home to mail in with a clownfish. Plus can't a clownfish lay 100's of eggs vs a litter of 8 puppies!

Besides captive bred is just that... bred in captivity... if a Zoo has a baby elephant born... its still bred in captivity regardless of generation. Maybe you are thinking of domestication? a SBT is considered a domesticated cat where as a EG is a 'hybrid'.... at least in the laws where EG bengals are illegal in some states.

I'm not sure we can call a fish domesticated but more adapted to life in captivity.

 

[jason.kennedy.98478]

uhh.. no thanks :) A lot of those registries (looking at you AKC) ruin breeds. So many genetic issues added to what was once wonderful working breeds.

Also a 'f1' fish is a lot different to keep than a EG bengal. Ask me how I know ;Cat

I just can't imagine having to send papers home to mail in with a clownfish. Plus can't a clownfish lay 100's of eggs vs a litter of 8 puppies!

Besides captive bred is just that... bred in captivity... if a Zoo has a baby elephant born... its still bred in captivity regardless of generation. Maybe you are thinking of domestication? a SBT is considered a domesticated cat where as a EG is a 'hybrid'.... at least in the laws where EG bengals are illegal in some states.

I'm not sure we can call a fish domesticated but more adapted to life in captivity.

I have a SBT Bengal, they are interesting cats. i imagine the EG ones are more so, the USDA however does consider a F1 bengal/savannah to be domestic. the laws against them are due to similar lies that the Hawaii ornamental fishery is currently dealing with, the ALC are even domesticated in some parts of south east asia and have been so for centuries.

the point is that lies are easier to sell than the truth and to @Flippers4pups point, that may be true to the designer clowns but what about the standard clowns? with the rise of ever well funded militant environmental groups like sea sheppard and the courts refusal to charge people with perjury for submitting grey research papers and recalled papers as evidence, how long until the sheriff kicks in your front door and makes you prove your fish are captive bred? somewhat hyperbolic but there it is

a registry would help with, what is a snowflake, what is a premium snowflake and different da vinci grades and so on that are arbitrary asigned,

 

[Flippers4pups]

I have a SBT Bengal, they are interesting cats. i imagine the EG ones are more so, the USDA however does consider a F1 bengal/savannah to be domestic. the laws against them are due to similar lies that the Hawaii ornamental fishery is currently dealing with, the ALC are even domesticated in some parts of south east asia and have been so for centuries.

the point is that lies are easier to sell than the truth and to @Flippers4pups point, that may be true to the designer clowns but what about the standard clowns? with the rise of ever well funded militant environmental groups like sea sheppard and the courts refusal to charge people with perjury for submitting grey research papers and recalled papers as evidence, how long until the sheriff kicks in your front door and makes you prove your fish are captive bred? somewhat hyperbolic but there it is

a registry would help with, what is a snowflake, what is a premium snowflake and different da vinci grades and so on that are arbitrary asigned,

Common percula and ocellaris clowns have been captive bred for a couple decades or more now. Any you see are tank raised. Just not financially justifiable to capture in the wild and sell anymore. Costs too much as opposed to captive bred.

 

[andrewkw]

Most, maybe all places that are captive breeding fish are eager to show them off. While they may not want to reveal trade secrets they certainly love to show fish at various stages of development. While I'm sure some Bangai Cardinals and probably in the early days some wild Clown Fish were mislabeled I find it very hard to believe there are many if any lying about captive bred. They would be found out pretty quickly. It would also be hard to fake since it won't be easy to catch many fish all the same size ect. If I'm buying a conspicuous angel from poma labs I don't need the certificate to prove it's captive bred, but to display on the wall next to the tank.

 

[jason.kennedy.98478]

Common percula and ocellaris clowns have been captive bred for a couple decades or more now. Any you see are tank raised. Just not financially justifiable to capture in the wild and sell anymore. Costs too much as opposed to captive bred.

captive bred and wild clowns at with in 1 or 2 bucks of each other depending on what site you look at. and @LiveAquaria only sells CB clowns except for one type. still even then in divers den there are a lot of clowns that should have been culls with really bad underbites. as the captive bred marine industry catches up with the FW industry, as a consumer, i feel there needs to be greater transparency in the supply chain and a standard naming convention for the various phenotypes to minimize consumer confusion.

some of this angst my be coming from the fact that i live in one of the 9th circuits nanny states

 

[Tamberav]

I have a SBT Bengal, they are interesting cats. i imagine the EG ones are more so, the USDA however does consider a F1 bengal/savannah to be domestic. the laws against them are due to similar lies that the Hawaii ornamental fishery is currently dealing with, the ALC are even domesticated in some parts of south east asia and have been so for centuries.

the point is that lies are easier to sell than the truth and to @Flippers4pups point, that may be true to the designer clowns but what about the standard clowns? with the rise of ever well funded militant environmental groups like sea sheppard and the courts refusal to charge people with perjury for submitting grey research papers and recalled papers as evidence, how long until the sheriff kicks in your front door and makes you prove your fish are captive bred? somewhat hyperbolic but there it is

a registry would help with, what is a snowflake, what is a premium snowflake and different da vinci grades and so on that are arbitrary asigned,

Yeah sure, the law is kind of crap because a f1 bengal isn't really a danger to humans, a dog is more of a threat. That being said, bengals, especially EG bengals are a major threat to wildlife more than a domestic cat.

Depends on the definition of domestication, raising a 'wild' baby animal so it recognizes and interacts with humans is not really the same as the generations of selective breeding of something like dogs have gone through.

Do birds come with breeding papers like cats and dogs? What about reptiles? I honestly don't know.

'papered' fish just seems like a way to increase prices. We going to have fish shows next? :P Who has the most perfect snowflake clown of them all!

 

[Squeaky McMurdo]

Anything where you selectively breed the parents is considered captive bred. I have a mustang that was captured in Utah. If she came to me pregnant, her foal would be considered wild bred but born in captivity. Even if I bred her to another wild caught mustang, the resulting offspring is captive bred.

 

[jason.kennedy.98478]

Yeah sure, the law is kind of ******** because a f1 bengal isn't really a danger to humans, a dog is more of a threat. That being said, bengals, especially EG bengals are a major threat to wildlife more than a domestic cat.

Depends on the definition of domestication, raising a 'wild' baby animal so it recognizes and interacts with humans is not really the same as the generations of selective breeding of something like dogs have gone through.

Do birds come with breeding papers like cats and dogs? What about reptiles? I honestly don't know.

'papered' fish just seems like a way to increase prices. We going to have fish shows next? :p Who has the most perfect snowflake clown of them all!

fish show hu? so MACNA would be a day or two longer, sounds good to me

 

[Tamberav]

fish show hu? so MACNA would be a day or two longer, sounds good to me

:P

Got a pic of your bengal? I have 3 myself. I like to live in a constant state of chaos.

 

[jason.kennedy.98478]

:p

Got a pic of your bengal? I have 3 myself. I like to live in a constant state of chaos.

Best pic I have at the moment. 14 lbs and almost 8 he's currently banished from the house cause he decided he wanted to start marking everything

 

[Tamberav]

Best pic I have at the moment. 14 lbs and almost 8 he's currently banished from the house cause he decided he wanted to start marking everything

Naughty boy! Neutered and still marking like a brat? Cutie little lap leopard though :)


Also not the greatest pic but this pic has all 3 of them in it. The marble is a rescue from a shelter, I think he is 8 as well. The mink is an F3, not a year old yet. The brown spotted in the back is an F10, she is 2 years. They look innocent but they are a handful lol


MVIMG_20181116_211242_2 by Tana Jahangier, on Flickr