White Spongy Growth

[lwhite37]

I've been having a hard time keeping corals alive for the last year. My uneducated self did not realize that all of these interesting filter feeders (vermetid snails) were actually not a good thing... ;Facepalm. I kid you not, was actually excited to see such natural looking growth all over my rock. Bit of background there, due to a series of divorce related moves I had to break down my 120 gallon tank into a few smaller tanks in order to keep rock, coral and fish alive until I could settle permanently. One tank was left to hold about half of my rock that did not have any coral growth. That rock got completely coated with vermetid. My other tank contained my primarily lps coral and fish along with the other half of my rock. No surprise now, but when I combined everything into the 120 the vermetid spread everywhere. Since then (about a year ago) almost every coral I had and have since added has died off. And only recently have I become aware that the vermetid were a likely cause.

I've been spending a good amount of time reading the various posts and articles about vermetid removal and am very much on the fence of whether I want to fight this or completely start over. While I'm contemplating this, I've recently started to see several areas of my rock begin to be coated with this white film and I have no idea what it is and if its impactful. Much like the vermetid I initially saw it and thought it had a very intriguing and natural look, but am wondering if this is my pending problem to deal with. If it is, than that's one more argument toward starting over. I'd hate to go that route and lose all the benefit of the many years worth of good bacterial growth I've no doubt built up. Despite the transitory state of my tank of recent, I've had this rock in my tank(s) for about 7 years.

I'd appreciate any insight anyone can offer.

 

[MnFish1]

There are a lot of varied opinions on whether these are 'harmless' or 'not'. I would not chose them as the most likely cause of problems with your coral (I,e, I would think strongly about other reasons - stability of the tank, type of corals, tank conditions, parameters, etc - as well as what you consider 'success with corals'. If you are worried about coral - I would try to increase your water flow.. to prevent nets from 'covering' your coral.

It looks, though, like you have a lot, If you're compulsive, you can try to break them all off and kill the snail. But - given the number - you might want to try natural methods to get rid of them: Ornate Leopard Wrasses, Yellow Coris, Radiant Wrasse, Emerald Crabs, and Bumble Bee Snails

Additionally, you could take individual rock out and scrape the snails out.

Hope this has helped some

 

[lwhite37]

Thank you MnFish1 for the response. There are definitely a LOT of the snails. So much so that some rocks are entirely covered. If I decide to eradicate, was definitely thinking to try the bumble bee snails (have read mixed reviews on that) as well as removing individual rocks at a time for manual removal.

Before I decide to commit to the fight against those, I'm trying to identify the white growth on the rocks. I'm not sure what that is and don't need to be battling one fight while losing another. Any ideas on the white growth?

 

[lwhite37]

Forgot to mention that I do have an emerald crab and have watched him pick these guys apart and munch on him. He's been in the tank for about 6 months, but there are just way too many for him to have enough of an impact.

 

[MnFish1]

Thank you MnFish1 for the response. There are definitely a LOT of the snails. So much so that some rocks are entirely covered. If I decide to eradicate, was definitely thinking to try the bumble bee snails (have read mixed reviews on that) as well as removing individual rocks at a time for manual removal.

Before I decide to commit to the fight against those, I'm trying to identify the white growth on the rocks. I'm not sure what that is and don't need to be battling one fight while losing another. Any ideas on the white growth?

I'm not sure I see the other 'white growth' - I do see the 'white dots'. the 'white growth' - if its coming out of the snails - is the web they use to catch food. Otherwise a very common (good thing) is sponge. Hope this helps

 

[Karen00]

If you're talking about the stuff that kind of looks like a spider's web is probably it's probably the mucus web they put out. Someone on Nano-Reef did a nice write-up about these. Note: I can't vouch for any of the eradication methods but I have seen some of them mentioned here..

What makes them so horrible:
- Vermetid snails grow in every part of your tank. Your rocks, between your corals, inside your sump, on your powerheads etc. No place is save of them. Getting every single one of them out of your system without nuking your tank and basicly starting from scratch is impossible.
- The lack of natural predators makes them a trouble to deal with on your own. You need to remove them manually, but as I said before, if they are growing behind your reef or in places you cant reach where you have no chance in getting rid of them.
- They multiple insanely fast and grow really quick. One single snail can produce hundreds of eggs.
- They steal calcium out of your water that other corals need in order to build their tubes.
- Here comes the worst part: They destroy your corals...by spitting out a net made out of mucus. Small particles get traped inside that net and they retract it back to their mouths, eating it. The problem however is that this net is irritating other corals. They irritate the corals to the point where they refuse to open up and wither away or bail out. You would have to manually check every single corals day after day to make sure there are no snails next to them.
- Their calcified shells are very sharp able to cut your skin and making your bleed. Annoying when working on your tank.

What you are able to do:
- Bad news first: You will never get rid of them. Either give up your tank and start from scratch or accept that they are inside your tank now. Sounds hard, but you need to be prepared for the worst.
- Take pliers or any kind of sharp object, locate the snail and smash it until nothing remains of her. You need to make sure to completly destroy the shell. Dont give it a haircut by cutting off the top you need to completly destroy the snail otherwise it will come back.
- Glueing the opening of the snails tube shut will make it starve to death. Similar to the option above you still to manually find every single snail and close them off. If you have smaller kinds of vermetids, this will be a pain in the butt.
- If you are able to remove parts of your live rock where they are on, do it and completely kill that rock using bleach, hydrochloric acid or vinegar. Its the fastest way of dealing with them. They are immune to dips so giving them a freshwater bath or using hydrogen peroxid is completly useless.
- If you are keeping sps corals like pocillopora or acros get yourself a coral crab! They are keeping your coral healthy by cleaning off the snails mucus from your coral. That way the snail will not harass the coral and you dont have to deal with them. The crabs will not eat the snails, they only keep the coral clean and healthy. Studies have shown that coral crabs completly negate the negative effect of vermetid snails (NOTE: This only works for sps corals that are able to host coral crabs. Zoas, lps or softies that dont have similar protector animals are not safe).

Good luck!

 

[vetteguy53081]

white growth is poriferan songe, Expose to air or inject with air or vinegar and it will stop its progression.
For tube worms. . . directing flow towards them- not at them will starve them and they will start to vanish. Closest erradicator will be bumble bee snails but they are more apt to go after vermetid snail than tube worms.

 

[MnFish1]

If you're talking about the stuff that kind of looks like a spider's web is probably it's probably the mucus web they put out. Someone on Nano-Reef did a nice write-up about these. Note: I can't vouch for any of the eradication methods but I have seen some of them mentioned here..

What makes them so horrible:
- Vermetid snails grow in every part of your tank. Your rocks, between your corals, inside your sump, on your powerheads etc. No place is save of them. Getting every single one of them out of your system without nuking your tank and basicly starting from scratch is impossible.
- The lack of natural predators makes them a trouble to deal with on your own. You need to remove them manually, but as I said before, if they are growing behind your reef or in places you cant reach where you have no chance in getting rid of them.
- They multiple insanely fast and grow really quick. One single snail can produce hundreds of eggs.
- They steal calcium out of your water that other corals need in order to build their tubes.
- Here comes the worst part: They destroy your corals...by spitting out a net made out of mucus. Small particles get traped inside that net and they retract it back to their mouths, eating it. The problem however is that this net is irritating other corals. They irritate the corals to the point where they refuse to open up and wither away or bail out. You would have to manually check every single corals day after day to make sure there are no snails next to them.
- Their calcified shells are very sharp able to cut your skin and making your bleed. Annoying when working on your tank.

What you are able to do:
- Bad news first: You will never get rid of them. Either give up your tank and start from scratch or accept that they are inside your tank now. Sounds hard, but you need to be prepared for the worst.
- Take pliers or any kind of sharp object, locate the snail and smash it until nothing remains of her. You need to make sure to completly destroy the shell. Dont give it a haircut by cutting off the top you need to completly destroy the snail otherwise it will come back.
- Glueing the opening of the snails tube shut will make it starve to death. Similar to the option above you still to manually find every single snail and close them off. If you have smaller kinds of vermetids, this will be a pain in the butt.
- If you are able to remove parts of your live rock where they are on, do it and completely kill that rock using bleach, hydrochloric acid or vinegar. Its the fastest way of dealing with them. They are immune to dips so giving them a freshwater bath or using hydrogen peroxid is completly useless.
- If you are keeping sps corals like pocillopora or acros get yourself a coral crab! They are keeping your coral healthy by cleaning off the snails mucus from your coral. That way the snail will not harass the coral and you dont have to deal with them. The crabs will not eat the snails, they only keep the coral clean and healthy. Studies have shown that coral crabs completly negate the negative effect of vermetid snails (NOTE: This only works for sps corals that are able to host coral crabs. Zoas, lps or softies that dont have similar protector animals are not safe).

Good luck!

This is exactly true - except (IMHO) - there are natural predators, and second - I have had 'a couple' - never an 'infestation' - and it seems to me like they do best with 'high nutrients' - and worse as the nutrient levels are lower. Additionally - they do better in a high alkalinity environment or high Ca environment - which some people use to increase coral growth.

Lastly - there is debate as to whether they have any affect on coral - except their webs. If the coral is going ok - its not a problem. BTW - its my experience that corals themselves have some resistance to them as well. Additionally - I keep my tank really well lit. I do not use a lot of blues - and the only place I have seen the snails (which I agree you will always have) - is in the darker areas - never 'throughout the tank'. Would be interested in your thoughts Karen

 

[lwhite37]

white growth is poriferan songe, Expose to air or inject with air or vinegar and it will stop its progression.
For tube worms. . . directing flow towards them- not at them will starve them and they will start to vanish. Closest erradicator will be bumble bee snails but they are more apt to go after vermetid snail than tube worms.

Thanks. I'm attaching some better photos of what I was referring to as the white spongy growth as I realize the first picture didn't highlight it well.

 

[Dkmoo]

Whenever I see posts that claim "XYZ" pests are killing corals, I try to help them see it from a different perspective to help them trouble shoot the problem. Unless we are talking about some kind of predatory organism that specifically target corals without a natural counter in our tank (ie, MEN or AEFW), most other perceived "pests" can being falsely blamed.

In case of the vermatid, I'm a firm believer that they are not pests. In a healthy system, their population is self regulating. The fact that you have an explosion of them is a "symptom" of something wrong in the tank, and its that "something wrong" that's more likely the cause of your coral death. Vermatids are filter feeders, they explode mainly for 2 reasons 1) there's food in the water 2) there's not enough other things competing for that food.

When there is excess food in the water, it is also then very likely that you have excess dissolved organic compounds (DOC). DOC is a double edged sword - part of the organism it feeds is your bacteria colony. There are thousands of different kinds in your tank. Not all are good - some are good and help break down waste, others are predatory and grow on corals and use up the oxygen and literally suffocates the coral and killing them. This is likely one cause of your coral problems. The fact that you also start to have sponge growth is another sign of the elevated DOC concentration.

Lacking competiton against vermatid - this is harder to pinpoint as any one specific reason for coral issues. But generally this is a sign of a weak and not diverse microfauna. A diverse and strong microfauna is essential to maintain tank stability in water chemistry which corals require. Growing out sponges is a good step in the right direction. Worms, pods, barnacles, and other filterfeeders are all helpful, the more variety the better.

Another factor for your corals issue could just be other stability, lighting, or water param issues and its the dying of coral itself thats causing vermatid explosion. Dying coral release a lot of nutrients back into the water.

A weak coral is probably the only situation that a vermatid next to it can make the problem worse bx the web bothers it. A healthy coral will not be bothered by it.

Instead of the vermatid, I would focus on the coral and the dirty water first - increase skimming/filtration, is your fish overstocked? reduce feeding - esp if you are broadcast feeding coral food - fish poo is plenty to keep corals fed, at least in the short term, and don't forget they are photosynthetic, so they can last much longer without "excess food in the water" than the vermatids. Add some pods if you can, let your other microbeast grow out. do not carbon dose bc that feeds bacteria. Make sure water params are stable, light/flow appropriate.

 

[ying yang]

I see a sponge like thing in and around where you highlighted ( looks like a dragons head is forming so maybe dragons soul sponge ha ha )
On a serious note I see alot of reefers don't mind sponges and with the majority of sponges they welcome them as they filter the water ,unless the sponge is choking the corals and having a negative impact,I have also read an article on reef builders I think it was stating sponges are n ot good in a reef tank as can irritate corals/use suspended food particles in the water plus some other reasons why I forgot .
I'm only new to saltwater but the few times I've had to remove corals from frag rock they came on,the sponges just peeled straight off,now granted there all different kinds if sponges and may or may not act the same but for me they just peeled straight off the rocks.

Just wanted to share the dragons head as I'm silly like that lol ^_^

 

[lwhite37]

Whenever I see posts that claim "XYZ" pests are killing corals, I try to help them see it from a different perspective to help them trouble shoot the problem. Unless we are talking about some kind of predatory organism that specifically target corals without a natural counter in our tank (ie, MEN or AEFW), most other perceived "pests" can being falsely blamed.

In case of the vermatid, I'm a firm believer that they are not pests. In a healthy system, their population is self regulating. The fact that you have an explosion of them is a "symptom" of something wrong in the tank, and its that "something wrong" that's more likely the cause of your coral death. Vermatids are filter feeders, they explode mainly for 2 reasons 1) there's food in the water 2) there's not enough other things competing for that food.

When there is excess food in the water, it is also then very likely that you have excess dissolved organic compounds (DOC). DOC is a double edged sword - part of the organism it feeds is your bacteria colony. There are thousands of different kinds in your tank. Not all are good - some are good and help break down waste, others are predatory and grow on corals and use up the oxygen and literally suffocates the coral and killing them. This is likely one cause of your coral problems. The fact that you also start to have sponge growth is another sign of the elevated DOC concentration.

Lacking competiton against vermatid - this is harder to pinpoint as any one specific reason for coral issues. But generally this is a sign of a weak and not diverse microfauna. A diverse and strong microfauna is essential to maintain tank stability in water chemistry which corals require. Growing out sponges is a good step in the right direction. Worms, pods, barnacles, and other filterfeeders are all helpful, the more variety the better.

Another factor for your corals issue could just be other stability, lighting, or water param issues and its the dying of coral itself thats causing vermatid explosion. Dying coral release a lot of nutrients back into the water.

A weak coral is probably the only situation that a vermatid next to it can make the problem worse bx the web bothers it. A healthy coral will not be bothered by it.

Instead of the vermatid, I would focus on the coral and the dirty water first - increase skimming/filtration, is your fish overstocked? reduce feeding - esp if you are broadcast feeding coral food - fish poo is plenty to keep corals fed, at least in the short term, and don't forget they are photosynthetic, so they can last much longer without "excess food in the water" than the vermatids. Add some pods if you can, let your other microbeast grow out. do not carbon dose bc that feeds bacteria. Make sure water params are stable, light/flow appropriate.

Thank you, I'll step away from the ledge and start thinking about other sources. Definitely was not excited about the idea of a full reset. Meanwhile will work on trying to manually reduce the overall population of them if I can

 

[Karen00]

This is exactly true - except (IMHO) - there are natural predators, and second - I have had 'a couple' - never an 'infestation' - and it seems to me like they do best with 'high nutrients' - and worse as the nutrient levels are lower. Additionally - they do better in a high alkalinity environment or high Ca environment - which some people use to increase coral growth.

Lastly - there is debate as to whether they have any affect on coral - except their webs. If the coral is going ok - its not a problem. BTW - its my experience that corals themselves have some resistance to them as well. Additionally - I keep my tank really well lit. I do not use a lot of blues - and the only place I have seen the snails (which I agree you will always have) - is in the darker areas - never 'throughout the tank'. Would be interested in your thoughts Karen

You could be entirely correct. As mentioned what I posted came from someone on Nano-Reef. I have no experience with vermetid snails (if that's what they are). It was mentioned they could be/are tube worms. I totally agree with people saying a lot of these types of creatures aren't necessarily pests in the truest sense of the word but if they get to plague proportions and they start making the tank look ugly or start irritating neighbors then it's probably debatable as to whether they have become a pest at that point. I think it also comes down to tank size. For instance bristleworms in a 100g tank might hardly be noticed but if they get to 3" in length they are certainly going to be noticed in my 5g really quickly. Haha.

 

[lwhite37]

I see a sponge like thing in and around where you highlighted ( looks like a dragons head is forming so maybe dragons soul sponge ha ha )
On a serious note I see alot of reefers don't mind sponges and with the majority of sponges they welcome them as they filter the water ,unless the sponge is choking the corals and having a negative impact,I have also read an article on reef builders I think it was stating sponges are n ot good in a reef tank as can irritate corals/use suspended food particles in the water plus some other reasons why I forgot .
I'm only new to saltwater but the few times I've had to remove corals from frag rock they came on,the sponges just peeled straight off,now granted there all different kinds if sponges and may or may not act the same but for me they just peeled straight off the rocks.

Just wanted to share the dragons head as I'm silly like that lol ^_^

Dragons head.. I'll definitely borrow that one from you

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks. I'm attaching some better photos of what I was referring to as the white spongy growth as I realize the first picture didn't highlight it well.

Sponge and tunicates

 

[MnFish1]

Sponge and tunicates

Which are harmless - unless you don't like the look of them. They are actually more a sign of a healthy tank IMHO

 

[vetteguy53081]

Which are harmless - unless you don't like the look of them. They are actually more a sign of a healthy tank IMHO

tunicates are filter feeding but this type of sponge can be evasive given time and smther coral at the base then creep up the coral itself. They have no certain path for growth

 

[eggplantparrot]

I HATE vermetids. They are ok at capturing my overfeeding, but they grew to a point where putting my hand in the tank was painful.

I accidentally found a bandaid solution to keep them to only under rocks/areas you'd never reach: long spine urchin.

I don't know if it has to be long spine, but I transfered my banded long spine from the small tank and over time, as the urchin excavated the surface of the rocks, he took all of the vermetid snails too.

 

[MnFish1]

tunicates are filter feeding but this type of sponge can be evasive given time and smther coral at the base then creep up the coral itself. They have no certain path for growth

Interesting - I have them - have never seen them in lit areas - they are usually under or just between rocks. Interesting that they can be invasive. Thanks for the info

 

[vetteguy53081]

Interesting - I have them - have never seen them in lit areas - they are usually under or just between rocks. Interesting that they can be invasive. Thanks for the info

Had my share of spreading. They definitely favor low light areas