Why do some do so.

[Paul B]

All you're doing is overloading your system with biological material. Run a DOC test and see how absolutely terrible your tank is. I'll wait.

You may be waiting a long time. My system has been running for 55 years. My tank must be really, really terrible.

Most detritus is made of cast off shells of amphipods, copepods, and the remnants of numerous creatures that use chitin and calcium for their shells. Fish poop is a temporary form of detritus, as it is organic and will eventually disappear.

My gravel (over a reverse Undergravel filter) all the way down to the bottom glass is a mixture of sea urchin spines, broken snail shells, pieces of crabs and shrimp from molts, fish scales and bones from creatures that died over the years. Bristle worm bristles and mandibles. Fish teeth and silica particles from soft corals. etc.

These things are full of silica "crystals"



Most people don't keep a tank long enough to have any of these things.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Or like me just leave it alone.

My latest tank is about 5 years old now. I have never cleaned my sump. Why haven't I? Well let me start by stating, I have no filter floss, no socks and no roller mat. Apart from a skimmer there is nothing else to particulate like detritus out.

So back to the question. Why dont I remove that gunk that accumulates in my sump?
A good indication to why is the amount of life within it, its teaming with lots of sponges. Copepods amphripods, mini tube worms and so on.

Now am not saying those that use mechanical filtration don't have life in their sump but my question to those who do, why? Are you sure that expensive roller mat is necessary? Are you sure its really beneficial to your DT and corals?

Many years ago I did use filter floss to remove what now lies in my sump. I have long sinced believed not only is it harmless its actually beneficial to my system and forms a large part of my beliefs in keeping a reef aquarium.

There are others if course, some quite controversial to manynhere. That dosen't worry me as I go by results achieved. I don't add much in the way of coral foods, vitamins, amino acids or other locations and potions. I feel.my tank doesn't need them.

I don't wish to be critical of those who employ mechanical filtration and or clean their sump of detritus as I know there is more than one way to run a reef tank. IMO less is more unless its regarding my reefscape which is a different topic altogether.

May your reef thrive whichever way you prefer to run it.
Not easy to get a good shot of my sump due to reflection.

For me, its a natural part of ecosystem and is always clear and never gets stirred up or ingested into my return pump

 

[atoll]

I do not doubt that there is some validity to both approaches, and also that there is death by both approaches, which you may be ignoring.

If a mainstay of your approach is to carefully observe fish for healthy specimens, then you are not selecting many less than healthy specimens. Those less perfect ones may be the exact ones that would die during a QT treatment, and without a QT, may go on to die in the store or in customer tanks.

In fact, I think there's no evidence either way about which approach leads to more total deaths.

Am not ignoring anything. I am aware people have success with QTing. I am also aware that many fish died during or not long after it. I am also aware fish die that haven't been QTd.

However, what I am saying via my personal experiences along with Paul b and subsea is that despite being told to the contrary, I have never had a serious disease outbreak in over 40 years doing what I do. Quite remarkable in today's QT advice.

I have lost the last odd fish for no apparent reason within a short period of time of introduction, within 2 weeks, cyanide poisoning maybe. None should sign of disease when introduced.

Neither of us 3 are scientist as you know just experienced honniests and reefkeepers that have similar ways and achieve similar results. Results that can't be ignored or written off as lucky as some suggest esp with our longterm success.

Between us we have something in excess of 100 years reefing expeeience and are amongst the longest reefers on here. Paul 50 years myself 45 years, not sure about Subsea but nodoubt he's been reefing quite sometime.

People are free to accept or ignore our methods and approach to how we keep and introduce our fish as they wish of course.

 

[Louis Z]

Detrivores are part of CUC and they provide multiple food webs that recycle nutrients up the microbial highway.

While fish poop is one source for detritus, its not the only source.

Oxford dictionary:

organic matter produced by the decomposition of organisms.

I cultivate cryptic sponges and encourage carbon rich detritus to feed the microbial loop that feeds my reef tank.

Ok

Run a DOC test and see how absolutely terrible your tank is. I'll wait.

Well if you have filter feeders and sponges . DOC is a food source . One can cultivate them . Their old systems have a large supply of cryptic sponges absorbing doc and turning it to biomass . Way back when live rock was live , sponges and other microscopic organisms always came in and inoculated the tank on a continuing basis . The amphipods , copepods , worms , ciliates and bacteria live on that mulm/Detritus. . The deep sands beds that are there reduce nitrate to N2 . As long as you have critters that move through the sand bed then you can minimize H2S production. May not be like a true natural system but mimicking as best as one could . The most diverse tanks with a natural filtration always seemed to have a huge population of diverse copepods and ciliates and worms . The best ones I saw were mysid shrimp factories . So I am moving toward that nirvana . . I want a mandarin pair , and a. CBB and in order to have those I need to have that animalcule factory . So before knocking someone else’s long running tank , take from it what you can or don’t Your way is not the only way as their way is not either . Each system is different with different mgmt ideas . I am not fully on board with a no QT system . I have seen many parasite population explosions in a small enclosed space . so I Do QT . But my QT are not as sterile as some suggest to have . More of an observation and get the fish to heal and reenergize from the trauma they have encountered . I have small pieces of live rock and chaetomorpha and no pieces of pvc in their QT tank . I make small caves and overhangs with limestone tile on top of limestone bricks .If they are ill or parasitized then they move to a TX tank that I then have to carefully monitor .

 

[BeanAnimal]

Detritus is the same, weight-for-weight, as a fish bioload.

Says who and measured in what timeframe with respect to its appearance in the system?

Clean your nasty-!@# sump, bro. That's disgusting.

Isn't fish bio-load coral food? Doesn't detritus break down and feed things? Or is it like radioactive waste with a 10,000,000 year half life?

 

[BeanAnimal]

One or a few specific species of bacteria will dominate in the closed system

But these are not closed systems.
Is the overall system a sink, sure... maybe? It has living and inert mass accumulation. Should we "export" parts of that? Maybe and most of us do in one form or another. Skimmers, filters, water changes, fragging, etc. But even without export, are those nutrients not locked into coral tissue and skeleton until the die or are physically removed? Coralline, snail shells, detrivore bodies, fish bodies and the energy expended by all of those living things?

 

[Subsea]

You are applying concepts from vastly diverse natural systems that a closed aquarium system is far from similar to. Aquarium biodiversity trends lower the longer said system runs. One or a few specific species of bacteria will dominate in the closed system and outcompete most others to the point of nonexistence. Nothing you are doing here is making an iota of difference in that process. All you're doing is overloading your system with biological material. Run a DOC test and see how absolutely terrible your tank is. I'll wait.

“One or a few specific species of bacteria will dominate in the closed system and outcompete most others to the point of nonexistence.“

@Doctor Derp
Lets park here.

If nothing was done in a system and it was allowed to degrade to “old tank syndrome” as a generalization, dominant species would take over. Not dissimilar to a climax forest on land.

In context of bacteria in a reef tank, gut cavity bacteria from live clams and fresh live food from the seafood market are an important source. As well as any fish & frags added. I am confident that bacteria in the room air will enter system.

 

[Louis Z]

I am actually think ing of dropping dead mangrove leaves into my sump . I would love to have a natural supply of worms and ciliates growing and supplying my DT

 

[Louis Z]

I am actually think ing of dropping dead mangrove leaves into my sump . I would love to have a natural supply of worms and ciliates growing and supplying my DT

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Am not ignoring anything. I am aware people have success with QTing. I am also aware that many fish died during or not long after it. I am also aware fish die that haven't been QTd.

However, what I am saying via my personal experiences along with Paul b and subsea is that despite being told to the contrary, I have never had a serious disease outbreak in over 40 years doing what I do. Quite remarkable in today's QT advice.

I have lost the last odd fish for no apparent reason within a short period of time of introduction, within 2 weeks, cyanide poisoning maybe. None should sign of disease when introduced.

Neither of us 3 are scientist as you know just experienced honniests and reefkeepers that have similar ways and achieve similar results. Results that can't be ignored or written off as lucky as some suggest esp with our longterm success.

Between us we have something in excess of 100 years reefing expeeience and are amongst the longest reefers on here. Paul 50 years myself 45 years, not sure about Subsea but nodoubt he's been reefing quite sometime.

People are free to accept or ignore our methods and approach to how we keep and introduce our fish as they wish of course.

I'm not getting back into the QT vs no QT debate here despite having a different explanation for your results, I'm just clarifying that it is not clear which method leads to more total fish deaths, which you asserted as a reason you picked your method:

we don't QT because we think it's unnecessary and dangerous given the number of fish thst die in QT or shortly after

One could just as easily say:

we QT because there are so many sick fish in LFS that ultimately will die without treatment

 

[Subsea]

I'm not getting back into the QT vs no QT debate here despite having a different explanation for your results, I'm just clarifying that it is not clear which method leads to more total fish deaths, which you asserted as a reason you picked your method:

we don't QT because we think it's unnecessary and dangerous given the number of fish thst die in QT or shortly after

One could just as easily say:

we QT because there are so many sick fish in LFS that ultimately will die without treatment

There is data from aquaculture facilities that demonstrate stress to be responsible for more than 80% of fish deaths.

Food production gets research money, not so much in ornamental fish industry.

 

[atoll]

I'm not getting back into the QT vs no QT debate here despite having a different explanation for your results, I'm just clarifying that it is not clear which method leads to more total fish deaths, which you asserted as a reason you picked your method:

we don't QT because we think it's unnecessary and dangerous given the number of fish thst die in QT or shortly after

One could just as easily say:

we QT because there are so many sick fish in LFS that ultimately will die without treatment

The reason "I picked my method" is because before like many I had problems with itch and for 40 years I haven't"

"we QT because there are so many sick fish in LFS that ultimately will die without treatment"

Yes you could say that however, most LFSs I know have only a background of copper treatment. Once transfered to somebodys tank thats when the problems start. Often no sign of white spot in the LFS but no sooner in the home aquarium the fish carrying white spot spores unseen in the LFS show themselves.

However, in my 40 years my fish tanks have never had a breakout of white spot and thats buying fish from many different LFSs. Many who swear blind you will introduce white spot into your tank if you buy fish from a certain LFS.

I have no doubt I have often introduced white spot when introducing fish its just that it never takes hold and no other established fish contracts it.

Case in question. I introduced a second Royal gramna a while ago. Almost immediately it show a few spots and started to scratch itself against rocks and sand. IME Royal grammas are one of the itch magnets. 36 hours after introduction, no sign of the spots and the Royal gramma has stopped scratching.

No other established fish showing signs of white spot. I have seen similar many times but on each occasion with the same results. I have or have had tangs dwarf angels copperband butterflies none of which contracted the likes of white spot.

I guess you pays your money and takes your pick.

 

[Paul B]

For myself, Atoll and Subsea, these silly diseases are a non-issue. I find it interesting that so many people allow their fish to get sick, as it is so easy to keep them healthy. Fish in the sea and in properly run tanks know how to stay healthy on their own without any input from us, as long as we feed them correctly, (with living gut bacteria) provide proper hiding places, and minimize stress, which is probably the most important factor.
(Premium dry foods are not the proper food)

To me, quarantine is extremely stressful and almost forces fish to contract something unless you can quarantine in something that resembles a fully set-up and mature reef tank, so the fish "think" they are in the sea. We never think of stress enough in this hobby unless it relates to us.

If your fish are constantly spawning, you know you have very healthy fish as all healthy fish spawn constantly. Or at least fill with eggs.
(That is fish that will spawn in a tank, not all fish)















Healthy fish also only die of a few things; old age is the most common cause, but some may be bullied or jump out. They should never die of a communicable disease, like never or we failed.


I personally would not put a quarantined or medicated fish in my tank, as it is not (IMO) a complete fish and will most likely have a shortened lifespan. I linked numerous scientific articles on that, so I have no need to do it again.

I realize many public aquariums quarantine. That doesn't mean it is correct; it just means they have not discovered the secret to keeping fish healthy naturally.

Fish live naturally in the sea while swimming in a sea of parasites and bacteria. They eat parasites and bacteria with every meal, which is how they were designed to eat.

I have not lost even one fish to any parasite in probably 45 years and I add fish from everywhere including the sea. How can I do that? And if I can do that, why can't most people?

Virtually everyone who says they used what you call "ich management" did it wrong. They either fed dry foods, medicated, quarantined, observed, dipped or tried to kill parasites one way or another and I have said numerous times, that won't work. If you want to do that method, you need to do the complete method, just like if you want to quarantine, you must do it correctly.

Why do you think when we see fish in quarantine, the fish get something else? I know why. Atoll and Subsea also know, and we know how to prevent that from happening to us. In over 100 years of combined fish keeping.

Of course quarantine works, but it is a temporary solution and not natural. Natural is how fish in the sea live, and in my 50 years of SCUBA diving, I have never seen a fish with any of the diseases I see in this hobby.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse. I disagree with the assertions you folks are making without evidence. I've said this over and over until blue in the face, but if you guys keep posting your opinions over and other and risk folks not thinking there's an alternative explanation, then I guess my future will be busy. lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There is data from aquaculture facilities that demonstrate stress to be responsible for more than 80% of fish deaths.

Food production gets research money, not so much in ornamental fish industry.

I certainly agree with that. It's a large part of my explanation of why some folks (including me and some of those here) see little disease, whether using quarantine or not. Provide a good environment and most fish will thrive disease free. :)

 

[atoll]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse. I disagree with the assertions you folks are making without evidence. I've said this over and over until blue in the face, but if you guys keep posting your opinions over and other and risk folks not thinking there's an alternative explanation, then I guess my future will be busy. lol

Why do you insist we dont agree there is an alternative to our methods when we have clearly stated QT can work its just we believe there is a better method.?
Well over a 100 years of experience berween 3 of us with what we do and having near enough trouble free issues. If thats not enough for you fine. We can agree to disagree on why our methods work. What we will never agree on is the results pointing to the fact we are doing something right in achieving what we do. The how's and whys are secondary, result are everything in this hobby. The horse is well and truly flogged from both ends, we can agree on that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why do you insist we dont agree there is an alternative to our methods when we have clearly stated QT can work its just we believe there is a better method.?
Well over a 100 years of experience berween 3 of us with what we do and having near enough trouble free issues. If thats not enough for you fine. We can agree to disagree on why our methods work. What we will never agree on is the results pointing to the fact we are doing something right in achieving what we do. The how's and whys are secondary, result are everything in this hobby. The horse is well and truly flogged from both ends, we can agree on that.

You totally misunderstand my point. I’m not saying you don’t agree there is an alternative method, and never once have. Of course there is.

What I am saying is that you don’t seem to allow that there is an alternative explanation for your specific result. It is the explanation for your result that we disagree with, and most importantly, whether , as Paul just stated, a qt fish would not thrive in his system.

There is no data to support that, and I think it unlikely to be true.

 

[Paul B]

I'm not going to beat a dead horse. I disagree with the assertions you folks are making without evidence. I've said this over and over until blue in the face,

Randy, your face is not all that blue, and we are fine. Just discussing different ways to do things. We are not even beating dead horses, as that would get smelly after a while.

People can quarantine, not quarantine, or offer up tea leaves to the moon. We all think of success differently, and probably half of us use one or the other methods. Actually, I think there are only those two methods to do this.

 

[Paul B]

as Paul just stated, a qt fish would not thrive in his system.

And no evidence it would.

I wouldn't even know where to get a quarantined fish, as I almost never get a fish online, and all the LFSs here don't offer any quarantined fish that I know of.

I do know that one of my natural fish, with hopefully a full complement of parasites, won't work well in a quarantined system. My fish would live fine, but I doubt anything else would live.

 

[atoll]

And no evidence it would.

I wouldn't even know where to get a quarantined fish, as I almost never get a fish online, and all the LFSs here don't offer any quarantined fish that I know of.

That might depend on various factors like how long a fish is in QT and what medications have been administered. A fish may have enough of what it brought with it in the wild to survive your harsh unforgiving environment