Your Resident Electrician for all your electrical questions!
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Sleepydoc
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Paul - my understanding of code as that you can use either GFI breakers or receptacles, is that correct?
As for nuisance trips, I think you may be confusing GFCI breakers with Arc Fault breakers. The latter are notorious for nuisance trips (although the newer ones seem to be a bit better.)
I have had my tank on a GFI outlet since I set it up 8-9 years ago. I’ve had it trip 3 times - once was when I accidentally dropped a power strip in the water. The other two times were when the ballast on my T5 fixture went bad and started shorting out. I wouldn’t classify any of these as nuisance trips.
The purpose of a GFI is to protect people from shocks, injury and death. Paul will argue that if you know what you’re doing with electricity they they are unnecessary. He is a master electrician and has far more experience than most in this area, so it’s easier for him to be careful than most but I would also counter that accidents happen (like when I dropped the power strip) and in these cases a GFCI can be lifesaving. All the kitchen and bathroom outlets in your house should be gfi - how often do they trip unnecessarily?
Regardless, if you have 2 circuits, you should divide up your equipment so the critical equipment is divided between the two circuits.
As for nuisance trips, I think you may be confusing GFCI breakers with Arc Fault breakers. The latter are notorious for nuisance trips (although the newer ones seem to be a bit better.)
I have had my tank on a GFI outlet since I set it up 8-9 years ago. I’ve had it trip 3 times - once was when I accidentally dropped a power strip in the water. The other two times were when the ballast on my T5 fixture went bad and started shorting out. I wouldn’t classify any of these as nuisance trips.
The purpose of a GFI is to protect people from shocks, injury and death. Paul will argue that if you know what you’re doing with electricity they they are unnecessary. He is a master electrician and has far more experience than most in this area, so it’s easier for him to be careful than most but I would also counter that accidents happen (like when I dropped the power strip) and in these cases a GFCI can be lifesaving. All the kitchen and bathroom outlets in your house should be gfi - how often do they trip unnecessarily?
Regardless, if you have 2 circuits, you should divide up your equipment so the critical equipment is divided between the two circuits.
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Paul B
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I am not sure about this because new construction may have a different code than existing places, remember I retired almost 20 years ago.
No I am not confusing them. GFIs trip all the time in dampness or certain Rap music. Sometimes, quite often they trip for no reason. Remember they used to be made in the US and worked pretty good. Now they are made in China. I am sure some of them are tested or inspected, but I really don't trust Chinese electronics which is why we have to buy new LED lights for our tanks all the time even though LEDs are supposed to last longer than Nancy Pelosi.
When GFIs were invented here I think by Leviton, they sent me to school for them. I installed 14,872-14,875 of them in my 40 year career and have seen many bad ones.
Regardless, I would not put in a GFI breaker for a tank. For your kitchen, pool, Jacuzzi, ferris wheel etc, I would use them. For Those things, it don't matter if it trips.
For a tank I would install a normal breaker and split the things on your tank between a "few GFI recepticles".
I have about 5 of them for my tank on one normal circuit. If a couple of my pumps trip, the others will keep running.
If my breaker trips, I will turn in my electricians card and get a job in Burger King sweeping up around the French Fry cooker. ;Bucktooth
I'm no scientist so I can't say for sure, but the cost and accessibility to the receptacles could make your choice but they will both trip with a ground fault. If they are behind your tank and you don't like unplugging things to reset the gfci receptacle, and your not daisy changing them, then your going to need multiple 25$ gfci receptacles w.r style is best around salt. Then maybe just a braker in your easy to get to panel is better for you , but they are around 100$ or so,, each.
One very important question is why do you require gfci because in fl its only bath, kitchen counter, garage, outdoor, 3' to sinks that need to be gfci protected. Unless your building a dedicated fish room that is on new plans or something saying its only going to be a water room..but if you put a tank in your living room or bed room any room it would not require a gfci because that's not a fixed piece of equipment and when you move the house has gfci where someone else puts a kids room now it has gfci set up, not that that matters but I'm just wondering why, or who told you you require this expensive troublesome set up then I may get some more info but there may be some other options. Not that a gfci is not a good idea but I would never put one on my tank and I'd never use anything but a dedicated 20a circuit for the aquarium only and never put receptacles behind the aquarium.
youve said a few things that are not quite right, but you sound like your working at homedepot with that one, i know you " did this for 40 years" you put it in all ur posts....please people don't believe that rap music will make a gfci receptacle trip it just will not happen if it does you can probably look at it and it will look very scary and you should replace it anyway based off the looks of it! lol rap music thats a good one sir...notI am not sure about this because new construction may have a different code than existing places, remember I retired almost 20 years ago.
No I am not confusing them. GFIs trip all the time in dampness or certain Rap music. Sometimes, quite often they trip for no reason. Remember they used to be made in the US and worked pretty good. Now they are made in China. I am sure some of them are tested or inspected, but I really don't trust Chinese electronics which is why we have to buy new LED lights for our tanks all the time even though LEDs are supposed to last longer than Nancy Pelosi.
When GFIs were invented here I think by Leviton, they sent me to school for them. I installed 14,872-14,875 of them in my 40 year career and have seen many bad ones.
Regardless, I would not put in a GFI breaker for a tank. For your kitchen, pool, Jacuzzi, ferris wheel etc, I would use them. For Those things, it don't matter if it trips.
For a tank I would install a normal breaker and split the things on your tank between a "few GFI recepticles".
I have about 5 of them for my tank on one normal circuit. If a couple of my pumps trip, the others will keep running.
If my breaker trips, I will turn in my electricians card and get a job in Burger King sweeping up around the French Fry cooker. ;Bucktooth
Paul B
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I probably have 15 receptacles behind my tank. Is that bad? ;Wideyed
Actually I just counted, I have 21 receptacles behind my tank. ;Nailbiting
KStatefan
2500 Club Member
I should have reduced my quote so my question was clear.
Why do you say that a GFCI braker is less likely to trip?
@Brew12 maybe you can help? I see this posted by multiple people and locations about a GFCI breaker being less likely to trip but I can not find any spec that backs that up. They are both class A and both meet UL 943
Brew12
Electrical Gru
GFCI breakers used to have better harmonic mitigation in their circuitry so they were known to be more resistant to most false trips. They were slightly more susceptible to harmonics related to near location lighting strikes though.
I think enough improvements have been made to the receptacles that they are about equal now.
Azure Scolymia
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It is funny that you picked out “rap music“ to point out as wrong. It actually jives with my personal experience. Not rap music per say, but I do have a control 4 power amp that tripped the first brand of gfci outlets I installed. Two different circuits two different outlets.
Azure Scolymia
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That won’t really help if everything is plugged into the apex, and the gfci I have the apex plugged into pops for no reason.
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
I don't have a more recent edition, but looking at the 2014 NEC (210.8 A) "All 125V single phase, 15 and 20 amp receptacles installed in the locations specified...shall have GFCI protection"I am not sure about this because new construction may have a different code than existing places, remember I retired almost 20 years ago.
No I am not confusing them. GFIs trip all the time in dampness or certain Rap music. Sometimes, quite often they trip for no reason. Remember they used to be made in the US and worked pretty good. Now they are made in China. I am sure some of them are tested or inspected, but I really don't trust Chinese electronics which is why we have to buy new LED lights for our tanks all the time even though LEDs are supposed to last longer than Nancy Pelosi.
When GFIs were invented here I think by Leviton, they sent me to school for them. I installed 14,872-14,875 of them in my 40 year career and have seen many bad ones.
Regardless, I would not put in a GFI breaker for a tank. For your kitchen, pool, Jacuzzi, ferris wheel etc, I would use them. For Those things, it don't matter if it trips.
For a tank I would install a normal breaker and split the things on your tank between a "few GFI recepticles".
I have about 5 of them for my tank on one normal circuit. If a couple of my pumps trip, the others will keep running.
If my breaker trips, I will turn in my electricians card and get a job in Burger King sweeping up around the French Fry cooker. ;Bucktooth
According to this, either a GFCI breaker or outlet would be acceptable.
There are 3 questions - what does local code require, what does the NEC recommend, and what is prudent/safe for your application. NEC specifies GFCI protection essentially in all locations that are potentially wet or unfinished and below grade. (It specifically says "indoor wet locations" which would include a fish room if it is built as such.) Not all municipalities follow the NEC, though. As far as what is prudent/safe, that can be debated, as evidenced by this thread. With the amount of electrical equipment we use in our tanks, I would argue GFCI protection is prudent.
If the Apex 'brain' dies or loses power, the outlets will still continue to function according to their fallback programming.
Brew12
Electrical Gru
When I used an Apex I had the head unit and EB8 plugged into a non gfci receptacle. I then created GFCI pigtails for each heater, my skimmer, and my return pump. This way only the failed component would be isolated. I used MP40's at that point so the energized sides weren't wet.
Paul B
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This is a gray area because most home aquariums are not in a specific room that we can call a fish room, and when the house was built and inspected, there was no fish room on the prints so the code "probably" won't apply to a home "fish room".
A home aquarium is also considered an "appliance" because it is plugged in and not hard wired. The code ends at the outlet and anything you plug in, even if it is nuclear powered submarine, Ferris wheel or toothbrush would not be regulated by the code.
I personally would always use either a GFI breaker or receptacle on my tanks. As an electrician I have gotten severe shocks more times than I would like to remember and quite a few on my tank before there was any GFIs.
I removed most of them from the rest of my home except the bathrooms and kitchen. They were all over my house and the tripping drove me crazy. You can't really use them on outdoor Christmas lights as most of those cheap lights are not water resistant. I also removed them from my workshop because large power tools, especially very old tools also trip them.
I have many old tools because I like American tools and they don't make them any more so I keep repairing my old tools. But they can leak current tripping the GFIs.
Sleepydoc
Valuable Member
Completely agree, Paul. If the fish room is built as such then the inspector would likely require GFCI protection, but as most aquaria are placed in ‘regular’ rooms, the inspector is long gone. I mentioned the ”indoor wet locations” part of the code more to show that the intent of the code would apply to outlets for an aquarium.
Gotta love those old power tools - nothing like a little current leakage to get the work done! I assume you don’t have to deal with arc fault breakers - if the tools were tripping the GFIs I can’t imagine what they would do to AFIs!
Gotta love those old power tools - nothing like a little current leakage to get the work done!
I assume you don’t have to deal with arc fault breakers - if the tools were tripping the GFIs I can’t imagine what they would do to AFIs!
AfciCompletely agree, Paul. If the fish room is built as such then the inspector would likely require GFCI protection, but as most aquaria are placed in ‘regular’ rooms, the inspector is long gone. I mentioned the ”indoor wet locations” part of the code more to show that the intent of the code would apply to outlets for an aquarium.
Gotta love those old power tools - nothing like a little current leakage to get the work done!
Paul B
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I don't have any arc fault breakers. I am 72 years old and so far I haven't needed any of them yet.
You will if you extend circuits over 6'I don't have any arc fault breakers. I am 72 years old and so far I haven't needed any of them yet.
I’m trying to remotely locate my Radion 4 xr30 ballasts.
Using ecotech’s extension will break me financially (lol). Is there a generic version for these guys?
These are the guys I’ve been looking at
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Using ecotech’s extension will break me financially (lol). Is there a generic version for these guys?
Radion 3M Radion Extension Cable
3 meters in length and compatible with both G4 and G5 model Radions.
store2.ecotechmarine.com
These are the guys I’ve been looking at
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