Zero Nitrates, Slow Growth?
- Thread starter JAMSOURY
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Corals need nitrogen. 0 will cause problems in growth as well as the tanks microbial community (dino outbreams being a bad result of 0 nitrate in many cases). Dosing nitrate/phosphate or coral foods and what not will provide corals with nitrogen and phosphorus when there is a lack of these products in the tank. Some dial bafk their refugiums and what not to help cut down the removal of these products. You could also add more fish!
The real answer is... it depends. True zero, sure. Close to zero, then no chance. The issue is that we do not have test kits that can tell .5 from 0... where .5 is plenty and true 0 is a problem. Unless you are using chemicals or media, there is next to no chance that you truly have no no3.
The ocean has nitrogen at about .1 ppm residual. This is more than enough to not be growth limiting. The ocean, however, has a high throughput.
Remember that most corals prefer to get their nitrogen from ammonia/ammonium, not nitrate. Nitrate is too expensive for them to process. How do you get ammonia? Feed and have the fish process it in small amounts through the day.
Don't get caught in the trap of just testing for building blocks. Residual levels of N and P and test kit readings are what you are after, but people often focus on them because they are simple and easy. Availability and throughput are what you are after - heavy import (feeding) and heavy export. The best of the best keep their levels low, but detectable, feed a bunch and also skim and export a bunch.
My tank has about .1 no3, like the ocean. I have to use a ICP test to detect it. I grow stuff as fast as anybody can. However, my throughput is good.
Keep in mind that higher levels of no3 will inhibit calcification (real science here with peer review and decades of other studies to support it), so growth gets slower by having higher levels of N and P. Is this a big deal? It depends on the animal, but usually all will continue to grow for a while, so some detectable levels will not stop growth, but they will all stop at some point. You can likely grow most SPS in the 1 to 10 range, but some will start to STN and die more near to 10 while some care not. Most people just forsake these harder acropora to keep the others, sometimes not even realizing what has happened. In the end, ocean levels of residual N and P along with heaving feedings and heavy export will have the most growth. If you have low N and P without heavy feedings, then that could be an issue.
The ocean has nitrogen at about .1 ppm residual. This is more than enough to not be growth limiting. The ocean, however, has a high throughput.
Remember that most corals prefer to get their nitrogen from ammonia/ammonium, not nitrate. Nitrate is too expensive for them to process. How do you get ammonia? Feed and have the fish process it in small amounts through the day.
Don't get caught in the trap of just testing for building blocks. Residual levels of N and P and test kit readings are what you are after, but people often focus on them because they are simple and easy. Availability and throughput are what you are after - heavy import (feeding) and heavy export. The best of the best keep their levels low, but detectable, feed a bunch and also skim and export a bunch.
My tank has about .1 no3, like the ocean. I have to use a ICP test to detect it. I grow stuff as fast as anybody can. However, my throughput is good.
Keep in mind that higher levels of no3 will inhibit calcification (real science here with peer review and decades of other studies to support it), so growth gets slower by having higher levels of N and P. Is this a big deal? It depends on the animal, but usually all will continue to grow for a while, so some detectable levels will not stop growth, but they will all stop at some point. You can likely grow most SPS in the 1 to 10 range, but some will start to STN and die more near to 10 while some care not. Most people just forsake these harder acropora to keep the others, sometimes not even realizing what has happened. In the end, ocean levels of residual N and P along with heaving feedings and heavy export will have the most growth. If you have low N and P without heavy feedings, then that could be an issue.
Preach it jda! Well said!
Backreefing
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I .... shutting up
There are many links on Dr. Holmes-Farley's article on Nitrate, but this is real science like in textbooks and stuff. This is not some small time study that has a white paper.
blasterman
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Not quite sure what that statement means because it contradicts itself. I dose potassium nitrate because I can't keep it from dropping to zero, and have been increasingly experimenting with dosing small amounts of phosphate in my tanks. Far, FAR easier to raise levels than have to manage them down with tumbling balls of cheato. I've been experimenting with nitrate levels for years and ~1-5ppm seem to be the sweet spot for SPS. Zero can cause loss of color in SPS but doesn't seem to affect growth. 0 nitrate however can seriously hurt LPS and especially softie health. A have a large colony of gobstopper palys that react instantly and predictably when nitrate values drop below 1ppm.
I disagree that SPS care about ammonia. Free ammonia in healthy shallow reef waters is well into trace levels and in a mature reef tank ammonia is gobbled up by nitrosomonas bacteria as quick as fish excrete it. While ammonia is easier for algae to metabolize than nitrate we can assume zooxanthellae are getting as much nitrate as they need anyways.
Coral zooxanthellae algae are what care about nitrogen, not skeletal growth. If zooxanthellae can't handle nitrate than do explain why cheato gobbles it up so rapidly. Algae are algae.
Also, a quick technical point. Both ammonia and nitrate are sources of nitrogen.
SeaDweller
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How does that persons statement contradict itself? If it’s lacking, you dose to provide it.
huh... aren’t you also this guy who supposedly has super thriving tanks with *zero* anything, but you now dose? For what? That’s the only thing that’s contradictory: yourself.
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There is nothing contradictory about my post. If you dose nitrate and phosphate or foods (that are broken down into their most basic elements), you get phosphate and nitrogen. Zooxanthellae and corals do not produce these products on their own. They are two separate organisms with their own cells and DNA to construct. Zooxanthellae can produce sugar, which is not providing nitrogen or phosphorus. Those two are quite literally the backbone to all DNA/RNA structures in every cell of every living thing in the world and saying something can grow without them is false. You may have seen growth without reading them on test kits because they are being consumed in the tank.
I also am not sure why you are posting all of this information as a reply to mine? I never mentioned ammmonia and SPS, and I never said ammonia and nitrate are not sources of nitrogen.
The advance aquarist article appears to be gone now... if this show back up, then read it... the scholarly stuff linked in here was awesome and goes back decades with many subsequent studies and peer review and stuff:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
A snippet from another article that he wrote
I cannot stress this enough... if people are having true coral (stonies) calcify faster with elevated nitrate, then you are not doing something right when the levels are lower. If you want more saturated color from more zoox with higher nitrate levels, then cool... but growth should be the fasted possible when residual levels are lower. ...again, you still need N and P, so maybe the throughput is not enough.
I would be careful to assume that any kind of waterborne bacteria, protozoa or other micro organisms in the ocean are abundant in our tanks with full-on filtration, skimmers and the like. The bacteria that survive in our tanks are on surfaces and inside of things. I guess that people could be dosing so much organic carbon that the bacteria could outcompete the filtration, but I do not know of anybody who does this in a reef.
Although I have great growth with the few softies that I keep with NSW type of N and P, I have not really cared enough to study them or pay attention. I mostly keep bounces, CSBs and some rarer Z&P to trade and sell, but I can get a 1/2 bounce to grow to 3" in about 5-6 months and a fresh cut CSB to be 6" and ready to cut again in about 2-3 months. Again, plenty of throughput in my tank.
People who are so concerned about nitrate would be better off dosing ammonia or ammonium in small amounts.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry
A snippet from another article that he wrote
There are links and more discussion here:
Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION
Nitrate is an ion that has long dogged aquarists. It is typically formed in aquaria through the digestion of foods, and in many aquaria it builds up and can be difficult to keep at natural levels. In the past, many aquarists performed water changes with nitrate reduction as one of the primary...
www.reefedition.com
I cannot stress this enough... if people are having true coral (stonies) calcify faster with elevated nitrate, then you are not doing something right when the levels are lower. If you want more saturated color from more zoox with higher nitrate levels, then cool... but growth should be the fasted possible when residual levels are lower. ...again, you still need N and P, so maybe the throughput is not enough.
I would be careful to assume that any kind of waterborne bacteria, protozoa or other micro organisms in the ocean are abundant in our tanks with full-on filtration, skimmers and the like. The bacteria that survive in our tanks are on surfaces and inside of things. I guess that people could be dosing so much organic carbon that the bacteria could outcompete the filtration, but I do not know of anybody who does this in a reef.
Although I have great growth with the few softies that I keep with NSW type of N and P, I have not really cared enough to study them or pay attention. I mostly keep bounces, CSBs and some rarer Z&P to trade and sell, but I can get a 1/2 bounce to grow to 3" in about 5-6 months and a fresh cut CSB to be 6" and ready to cut again in about 2-3 months. Again, plenty of throughput in my tank.
People who are so concerned about nitrate would be better off dosing ammonia or ammonium in small amounts.
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SeaDweller
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That guy never backs up anything, I’m still waiting on him to show me his super awesome no fish, no livestock, no nutrient super awesome sps system.
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