#1 WHAT IF I TOLD YOU... Ammonia is causing your algae problems?

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Lasse

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Most bacteria can enter a dormant stage if their environmental conditions will be a disadvantage for them and this include nitrification bacteria. The classic nitrite oxidisers – Nitrobacter and Nitrospira will be outcompeted by heterotrophs if the condition for optimal growth of these bacteria is guaranteed. This means enough of DOC (dissolved organic matter) or too much particular organic matter. A good nitrifying biofilm (especially for nitrite oxidisers) must contain a low content of organic matter and the water need to be low in DOC. With other words – it needs a thin active biofilm with as low number of heterotrophs as possible. The dream of a both continue nitrifying and denitrifying biofilm is therefore – a dream if the denitrification is done by heterotrophs. However, it can be done in a batch reactor there you first give the options for fast nitrification and fast BOD removing and after that change the environment to favour a classic denitrification.

Nitrification bacteria in a bottle has been used for decades for commercial waste water treatment plants all around the world and it works. IMO it is an important step in order to establish a good bacterial nitrification in a fast way when you start a system (or aquarium). IMO – it is important to use only nitrification bacteria in these bottles. After the nitrification have started – it could be useful to add heterotrophic bacteria too but as mentioned before – it will come with LS, corals and other living thing taken from the sea. If you is a hard core pathogen hunter you maybe have to use these helpful bacteria mix in a bottle – but on the other hand – how do you know that this bacteria culture does not contain any pathogens? When you have an established bacteria culture in your aquarium (normally after 2 – 4 months – I do not see any use of these bacteria bottles if you not have had any events that have disturb your system. If you have had an algae bloom and this bloom have zeroed your nutrient and/or trace compounds – I think it could help if you use low amounts of DOC too.

If you can create this dream with help of grains of sulphur as the bed and base for the biofilm maybe can work because both reactions in this case is autotrophic – however – I have not seen any commercial use of this method and the denitrification step with sulphur usually have a slow flow and to keep the upper layer of such a reactor at around 5 ppm O2 (for good nitrification) can be very difficult – it will only be a small part – probably only the first 10 – 20 mm. If you want to clarify how this invention of you works – please do this in plain text here at R2R – not through a link to your homepage.


Sincerely Lasse
 
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Lasse

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So lets see if i get this right. If we have a low nutrient tank with alot of algae and ammonia is the source for nitrogen which feeds the algae, increading nitrification could/should in other words help with competing for the ammonia and reduce the potency for algae? In my case i have hair algae and i cant say i overfeed nor have alot of detritus, i recently reduced my filtration with removing passive siporax. Im debating weather i should reuse the siporax in a high flow reactor to make it nitrify for example. Would this be concidered a solid action of achieve better nitrification and try to compete for nitrogen sources (read ammonia)?

I would test that in an acute situation. Even if I am not with this idea (ammonia source/reason for algae) into 100 % - because I see the consumption as more important than production (grazers instead of growth limitation) – there is some truth in the assumption that NH3/NH4 will favour the growth of micro algae because if they use NO3 instead – they need to put rather much energy into convert NO3 into NH3/NH4 before (or in the first cell layer) hence less energy left from the photosynthesis to put on growth. I have always said that a good nitrification filter is good to have in the setup. I have a sponge filtre in the sump.


Sincerely Lasse
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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Well, it depends on what you define as an algae problem. This is a strategy to control an extreme algae outbreak. I once met somebody at the LFS frag bin and she told me she takes her rocks out weekly and scrubs off every last bit of algae off with a steel wire brush. She was an algae phobe. I see manageable amounts of algae as highly beneficial my their aquariums. If you're telling me that sombody has GHA growing on their glass and this tactic didn't work, I'd tell you they didn't wait long enough, are probably impatient, and wont be very successful at reefkeeping anyways.



If you want to question something I've written;
try the theory that algae overtaking the bacteria is what causes an outbreak, given no changes to bioload or feeding. Nobody has touched that yet except for @Lasse and it would make a great discussion.

I'm not gonna prove that algae prefers ammonia as it's primary food source. My grandma knows that and several others have voiced the same.
King O Sabe (Thales), I don't think he know who he's talking to. It killing me, shoot me now.
 
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ParsedOut

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http://www.cryerfamily.eclipse.co.uk/BacteriaBottleParable.htm
Live bacteria in a bottle?

If a healthy piece of coral is entered into the aquarium the coral contains all bacteria, dinoflagellates, cyano's and other live needed to stay healty. Different types of coral or corals from different habitats will have a different coral holobiont. This diversity can not be delivered in a bottle!

A nitrifying biofilm is a mix of hundreds of different types of bacteria and archaea, heterotrophs, autotrophs, sulphur bacteria, etc . This diversity of live can not be delivered in a bottle?

During the 1990s, marine microbial diversity proved to be more obvious than previous studies showed, more than 95% of marine microbes could not be grown (Fuhrman and Campbell 1998) because most of the marine microbes have a complex nutritional and / or need a physical environment; Until now (2016) it could not be simulated in culture conditions.( KValliappanEnCo2016)

One does not need any additions of so called " live bacteria" to install diversity. Diversity is entered with the live stock! A piece of a microbial mat! In the slime of a snail or a coral, on a fish, on and in any creature, one will find a lot more live diversity as one may ever be able to put in a bottle.

How a bottle may contain more " live" diversity as one may find on the gills of a fish or on a grain of sand ? What type of bacteria one may put in a bottle, will stay alive, and is not already present in numbers in the system? What is in the bottle?

I have reasonable doubts about the theory of "a non diverse colony of bacteria" being responsible and certainly about he assumption made that " bacteria in a bottle" are responsible for the change.
Anyway, enjoy your tank!

I have no interest in getting into a debate. All I will say is that I have a bare bottom tank with mined rock, 3 fish and 4 corals. I did the typical ammonia dosing cycle process, no live rock, no live sand, all of my corals are from local aquaculture and the fish are all tank bred. I can only attribute the rapid clearing of the algae to what I mentioned in my post and only seemed to accelerate with the bacteria addition. That's my experience, call it hooey... I've got other things to spend my time on. Thanks.
 
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Belgian Anthias

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If you can create this dream with help of grains of sulphur as the bed and base for the biofilm maybe can work because both reactions in this case is autotrophic – however – I have not seen any commercial use of this method and the denitrification step with sulphur usually have a slow flow and to keep the upper layer of such a reactor at around 5 ppm O2 (for good nitrification) can be very difficult – it will only be a small part – probably only the first 10 – 20 mm. If you want to clarify how this invention of you works – please do this in plain text here at R2R – not through a link to your homepage.


Sincerely Lasse



By adding nitrifiers one does not optain a nitrifying biofilm. Nitrifiers make only +- 15% of the bacterial and archaeal comunity of a nitrifying biofilm.

+- 50% of ammonium reduction in marine biofilters is the work of Archaea, the rest by > 10 different marine nitrifiers but mainly by bacteria Nitrosomonas sp. Nm143 and Nitrosomonas marina ! Nitrite is oxidized mainly by Nitrospira marina. Also ANAMMOX are found.
A simple nitrifying biofilter will prevent any ammonia problem now and in the future and makes the nitrogen content manageable. The capacity can easily be adjusted to an increasing bio-load. An aquarium grows!


If needed, safely stored nitrogen can easily be removed by adding some elemental sulfur to the filter or in the sump.
There is no need for a theoretical discussion. Just try it out, it will cost you just the effort and you will be amazed by the result. Commercial use?! Not really as a bit of granular sulphur will be sufficient for some years.

All information of 20 years of practical use and research about the BADES proces can be found and consulted in the Makazi Baharini wiki.

As shown, the so called dream has been subject of research since a few decades and the BADES process is well known and understood. The BADES proces is used on industrial scale for removing nitrate from groundwater for to be used as drinking water and the process found practical use in home and public marine aquaria. ( A sulphur denitrator which is kept anoxic by limiting the flow is an aplication of BADES which I consider as not suitable for to be used in a live support system)

The BADES proces takes place constantly in a normal nitrifying biofilm and is essential for the continunity of the film. Whitin the film, constantly produced HS is oxidized by sulphur bacteria using nitrate, producing S and or SO2. The produced sulphur is used for the BADES proces reducing nitrate. About 16% of all nitrate produced in a normal nitrifying biofilm is removed naturaly by mixotrophic denitrification within the film. By providing more sulphur this can be increased to +90%

A normal nitrifying biofilm consists for +- 40% of bacteria with an anaerobic pathway. The inside of a nitrifying biofilm is an ideal environment for autotrophic denitrification as annoxic conditions are not needed. When applied using BADES rolls + 90% of the by the filter produced nitrate may be removed, this in normal conditions at + 6 ppm DO.
As a reef aquarium has a very low bio-load it works perfectly. No reactor is needed. Also suitable for aquaculture systems with a medium high bio-load.
When aplied in a refuge one has full control over the ammonia reduction rate and or the nitrate level.

BADES is not an invention but a simple essential natural process which takes place everywhere ( before the coast of Chili 10,000,000 tons of sulphur bacteria containing and using elemental sulphur are present ) A BADESS is one of the options for nitrogen management, making it possible to close the nitrogen cycle by removing the daily nitrogen overproduction daily, every day, while keeping the by the user desired nitrate level, also at a very high bio-load.

BADES works best in a high input system.

All practical and theoretical information about BADES is available in the Makazi Baharini wiki and a lot more specialized information about aquarium practice. If an action denied page is shown, a link to the registration page is available on the page. The wiki is originally written in Dutch. The wiki contains protected research information which can be consulted. Available information can be used for free for personal use only, with respect to the work of the author(s), all rights reserved ,
 
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Lasse

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With the term nitrfyers I mean all microorganisms you mention in the first paragraph. The anammox process - as I know - has not been shown in aquaria even if I am sure it exist in old aquaria with sandbeds.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Belgian Anthias

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With the term nitrfyers I mean all microorganisms you mention in the first paragraph. The anammox process - as I know - has not been shown in aquaria even if I am sure it exist in old aquaria with sandbeds.

Sincerely Lasse
ANAMMOX was first isolated from an aquarium filter and are common. I am pretty sure they may be found in home aquaria biofilters .
 
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Lasse

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ANAMMOX was first isolated from an aquarium filter and are common. I am pretty sure they may be found in home aquaria biofilters .

What I have learned and remmember - it was discovered in waste water sludge in the beginning of the 1990s and according to this source - I remmember right

From the source - my bold
Anaerobic ammonium oxidation (anammox) bacteria, which were discovered in waste-water sludge in the early 1990s, have the unique metabolic ability to combine ammonium and nitrite or nitrate to form nitrogen gas.

Everyone - that´s interested of this process - here is the orginal article from 1995

But I also do belive that it probably will happen in home aquaria but it is a very slow process and demand an anaerobic substrate. My Reverse Remote Deep Sand Bed (see my build trhead) was constructed with the aim to get this to work in my aquaria. The bed is now 1.5 years old (had to redo it after 1.5 years). In natural see water sediments anammox is today seen as the most important single transfer of NH3/NH4, NO2 and NO3 into N2 gas.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Dis post is definitely stirring up the dtrius in everyones minds ...... and maybe even some ammonia as well! Good job getting people thinking from a different view, even if they dont want to. I believe that may be the total point?
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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What I have learned and remmember - it was discovered in waste water sludge in the beginning of the 1990s and according to this source - I remmember right

From the source - my bold

Everyone - that´s interested of this process - here is the orginal article from 1995

But I also do belive that it probably will happen in home aquaria but it is a very slow process and demand an anaerobic substrate. My Reverse Remote Deep Sand Bed (see my build trhead) was constructed with the aim to get this to work in my aquaria. The bed is now 1.5 years old (had to redo it after 1.5 years). In natural see water sediments anammox is today seen as the most important single transfer of NH3/NH4, NO2 and NO3 into N2 gas.

Sincerely Lasse

Never crossed my mind or thought of nitrate ammonification. I always thought that the end result of aerobic bacteria was nitrates and anaerobic bacteria would consume nitrates and possibly phosphates. I was going through some links today and by accident came across one that deals with nitrate ammonification. The paper mentions how certain mangrove areas like Florida are more prone to nitrate ammonification compare to say Saudi Arabia mangroves, less nutrients , areas with pollution run off, effect the efficiency of nitrate ammonification .

It's almost 2 am here, I should be asleep
 
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Lasse

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Nitrate ammonification (anaerobic heterotrophic bacterial conversion of NO3 into NH3/NH4) is a different process and it is known to occur in anaerobic sediments with low NH3/NH4 content. I had not thought of that - but if you got low in NH4, using external DOC and have NO3 in the water - it could have a importance in our aquariums for sure.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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So certain anaerobic bacteria breaks down nitrates to ammonia which is easier to break down to nitrites, safer for all creatures. But the cycle restarts again
That's what I understand

We all add DOC, while creatures in our DT, either die, urinate,feces, etc... add to DOC.

Also anaerobic process can begin under substrate 1 mm to 2 millimeters from the surface of the substrate
 
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Belgian Anthias

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What I have learned and remmember - it was discovered in waste water sludge in the beginning of the 1990s and according to this source - I remmember right

From the source - my bold

Everyone - that´s interested of this process - here is the orginal article from 1995

But I also do belive that it probably will happen in home aquaria but it is a very slow process and demand an anaerobic substrate. My Reverse Remote Deep Sand Bed (see my build trhead) was constructed with the aim to get this to work in my aquaria. The bed is now 1.5 years old (had to redo it after 1.5 years). In natural see water sediments anammox is today seen as the most important single transfer of NH3/NH4, NO2 and NO3 into N2 gas.

Sincerely Lasse
I am very well informd about Anammox. In 1986, Gijs Keunen ( Dutch) discovered a bacterium whose existence was predicted in 1977 by the Austrian chemist Engelbert Broda, but which was thought not to exist.
Now we know they are very common. According to recent research, + - 30% to 50% of the nitrogen that escapes from the oceans is caused by the anammox process.(WardEnCo2014) They are very common in open water!
There is no such thing as an anaerobic substrate. There are organisms with an anaerobic pathway. If the D/O decents below 0.5ppm we have an anoxic condition . Most Heterotrophs using an anaerobic pathway need anoxic conditions to function. Most Autotrophs are able to use an anaerobic pathway in OMZ zones ( Oxygen Minimum Zones)


ANAMMOX does not need a substrate and are very common in our oceans OMZ where also AOA ( Archaea) are active. The bacterium was detected in 1986 but isolated many years later. In aquaria there importance is minimal. ANAMMOX will not be able to control ammonia in a closed aquarium system. But it may help! The process is interesting as ammonia-nitrogen is removed without the nitrate stage. ANAMMOX does not transfer NO3 into N2. During the process a bit nitrate is produced. ANAMMOX uses NO2 as an oxygen source ( the end product of AOA)
 
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Dr. Dendrostein

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I am very well informd about Anammox. In 1986, Gijs Keunen ( Dutch) discovered a bacterium whose existence was predicted in 1977 by the Austrian chemist Engelbert Broda, but which was thought not to exist.
Now we know they are very common. According to recent research, + - 30% to 50% of the nitrogen that escapes from the oceans is caused by the anammox process.(WardEnCo2014) They are very common in open water!
There is no such thing as an anaerobic substrate. There are organisms with an anaerobic pathway. If the D/O decents below 0.5ppm we have an anoxic condition . Most Heterotrophs using an anaerobic pathway need anoxic conditions to function. Most Autotrophs are able to use an anaerobic pathway in OMZ zones ( Oxygen Minimum Zones)
ANAMMOX does not need a substrate and are very common in our oceans OMZ where also AOA ( Archaea) are active. The bacterium was detected in 1986 but isolated many years later. In aquaria there importance is minimal. ANAMMOX will not be able to control ammonia in a closed aquarium system. But it may help! The process is interesting as ammonia-nitrogen is removed without the nitrate stage. ANAMMOX does not transfer NO3 into N2. During the process a bit nitrate is produced. ANAMMOX uses NO2 as an oxygen source ( the end product of AOA)

ANAMMOX does not need a substrate and are very common in our oceans

By oceans, you mean areas in the ocean where D/O is below 0.05ppm?
 
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Belgian Anthias

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Nitrate ammonification (anaerobic heterotrophic bacterial conversion of NO3 into NH3/NH4) is a different process and it is known to occur in anaerobic sediments with low NH3/NH4 content. I had not thought of that - but if you got low in NH4, using external DOC and have NO3 in the water - it could have a importance in our aquariums for sure.

Sincerely Lasse

The process is called DNRA. (Dissimilative nitrate reduction to ammonium) DNRA keeps nitrogen in the system. DNRA and heterotrophic denitrification takes place simultaneously in the same zone. Normally DNRA is responsible for +- 16% of the nitrate reduction, depending of the C:N ratio. When the C:N ratio increases DNRA increases
 
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