2 week old tank

[Jay Hemdal]

Not sure anyone has suggested - adding ammonia to a fish tank. Instead - the comment would bode of course thats not recommended. Instead - To start a tank - one can add bacteria and a reasonable amont of fish with no problem Interested in @Jay Hemdal opinion

I prefer not to “hot start” a tank with bacteria and fish, a mature microbiome is better. However, that is better than what else we see here all to often - tanks being started with no bacteria at all!
Ammonia is the killer, if ammonia doesn’t rise above around 0.25 ppm, the core issue is something else.
Jay

 

[BeanAnimal]

great - except there are several decades - proven aquarists saying that wrong - So - I guess my question would be what is YOUR evidence - please provide references etc documentation etc. IMHO - you are entirely incorrect in some situations - but - it is individual - not this specific case. Looking forward to your response

Help me understand?

You assert that evidence proves me wrong (I am not sure exactly about what) whilst providing no evidence of your own; And, meanwhile demanding that I show you evidence to prove myself correct. I don't even (honestly) know what your point is.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Not sure anyone has suggested - adding ammonia to a fish tank. Instead - the comment would bode of course thats not recommended. Instead - To start a tank - one can add bacteria and a reasonable amont of fish with no problem Interested in @Jay Hemdal opinion

The very thread referenced here started by the OP, as well as countless others here at R2R mention it and recommend it.

 

[brandon429]

@Cell

I propose that no matter how long someone takes to start a reef/actually stock it/if they're reading old materials they won't be ready to reef even if they do a 5 month wait up cycle. slow is not better, ever.

studying correct procedural materials matters the most. that and owning a reef where the seams aren't going to split one morning.

the impacts to fish disease between a 1 week bottle bac cycle and a 5 month BRS-sanctioned wait cycle are nothing, no difference. It only seems like fish disease incidence would be less by waiting months


fish disease is lowered by ideal quarantine and holding/observation periods, effective feeding and tank design, fallow, and fully independent to how long someone chose to get ammonia control going.

old cycling science cannot and will not wrap it's head around that fact, that arbitrary waits are not better. they were trained by api that arbitrary waits are the best way.

reading and applying the newest science is the best way in my opinion and from that we can remove ammonia control fears. getting a tank ready by Fritz speed cycling is just fine, that's why our resident pro fish prep man does it that way (Dr Reef). he'd be losing thousands in stock $ if it was a bad way.

if ammonia control wasn't pretty much instant when tipped from a bottle, this search on google: "stalled reef tank cycle" would be four hundred thousand pages of dead fish, vs living fish.

I know we basically agree on this I'm just speaking loudly so folks in the other part of the room can hear lol.

 

[brandon429]

******just because a non digital test kit says .5, or 3ppm, doesn't make it right:

Ammonia Pegged at 8.0 After 50% Water Change, Nitrate 10ppm, What's is happening!

Okay 2 to 3 days ago everything was fine, normal tank. First sign something was up was my tank got cloudy for about a day, fish seemed lethargic and unwilling to eat. I ran my test and right away I noticed The Ammonia was as high as the test could read, I didn't believe it so I checked my other...

www.reef2reef.com

see the impact that old cycling science + non digital test kits did to that poor man? it removed any semblance of trust he could ever have in water bacteria.

his test kits, non digital said there was a problem, yet a highly delicate starfish who'd never live well in 8 ppm was doing just fine day one to day 30 of the issue.


non digital ammonia test kits are the bane of my existence as an online cycle soapboxer.


we don't have a way to reasonably infer if someone is above .25 ppm unless they own a seneye. its right there above.

here is seven straight pages of someone testing above .25, not being actually above .25, and totally panicking the entire time while their reef runs fine. notice: not one is a digital ammonia kit owner, red sea did this lol:

Sustained Ammonia spikes are misreads

The reason you think your reef tank can’t control its ammonia is due to false training from old cycling science. That and you don’t own a seneye on the tank in question: if you did, you wouldn’t ever think your ammonia was out of control...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[MnFish1]

I prefer not to “hot start” a tank with bacteria and fish, a mature microbiome is better. However, that is better than what else we see here all to often - tanks being started with no bacteria at all!
Ammonia is the killer, if ammonia doesn’t rise above around 0.25 ppm, the core issue is something else.
Jay

Not wanting to debate - but besides conventional wisdom " tank with bacteria and fish, a mature microbiome is better." I think a lot of people use fish shows. Macna - as an example of people just setting up tanks. However we never hear how those fish fare after MACNA. So I think your opinion is important

 

[BeanAnimal]

Curious - what do you base your (seemigly) expert on - Note - this is not an insult just saying thats a very definitive statment?

I am not insulted. You are just somebody trolling for an argument.

I based my OPINION on the fact that he admitted he had "headaches" with his "4 week cycle" using dry start. Done right, there really should be no headaches. Simple enough, don't read more into it.

 

[MnFish1]

Help me understand?

You assert that evidence proves me wrong (I am not sure exactly about what) whilst providing no evidence of your own; And, meanwhile demanding that I show you evidence to prove myself correct. I don't even (honestly) know what your point is.

I asked for your evidence.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Not wanting to debate -

Of course you are.

 

[Cell]

"Patience" as a universal fixer of all things can have disastrous consequences in some situations. There is real danger to misdiagnosing disease as a cycling issue that could have been resolved with just a little more patience, for instance. While the idea of "patience" is great and applicable for the reefing hobby, I think it's used way too often for specific events that require equally specific answers, not just "patience".

 

[MnFish1]

I am not insulted. You are just somebody trolling for an argument.

I based my OPINION on the fact that he admitted he had "headaches" with his "4 week cycle" using dry start. Done right, there really should be no headaches. Simple enough, don't read more into it.

Am I - or am I someone that has a bit of experience on the site. So - you made an accusation "I'm someone trolling for an argument" - when in fact I agree with you - there is no issue with someone starting a 'dry start' for 4 weeks' - so I guess I'm confused.

 

[MnFish1]

Of course you are.

I asked for the evidence for what you said - you're borderline - IMHO - not following the TOS here - but who cares in this sense. Can you answer the question?

 

[Cell]

I based my OPINION on the fact that he admitted he had "headaches" with his "4 week cycle" using dry start. Done right, there really should be no headaches. Simple enough, don't read more into it.

Done right? There is no "right" way. There are pros and cons to every method. Live rock from the ocean is currently viewed as the optimal method to start a reef tank, but there are even "headaches" associated with that.

 

[brandon429]

fully agreed


and I myself will never, ever ever ever own a reef started with dry rock for the reasons Jay mentioned. I'll do only skip cycle cured live rock reefs, so that my 'biome is good on day one. basic ammonia control wouldn't have been an issue either way, I can dump in a forty dollar bottle of fritz or a nine dollar bottle of biospira to get the same ends, but I like coralline indicators on rocks due to what that means about aging time, curing time, all kinds of inferred abilities come from coralline covered live rock.

you get to break most rules in reefing (but not disease preps) if we use coralline cured live rock from another reef tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Not wanting to debate - but besides conventional wisdom " tank with bacteria and fish, a mature microbiome is better." I think a lot of people use fish shows. Macna - as an example of people just setting up tanks. However we never hear how those fish fare after MACNA. So I think your opinion is important

A mature microbiome means more than just a population of nitrifiers.

Fish show tanks - are no different than buckets used in TTM, I don’t like them, but if ammonia is controlled, the fish will be o.k.

I actually never use bacteria cultures - I always have bio media stashed away in other systems to start new tanks, and those have a more robust microbiome.

Jay

 

[BeanAnimal]

I asked for your evidence.

Evidence of what exactly? That the longer a system runs from day zero, the more its biology matures and/or undergoes changes? LoL - no thanks, you appear to be a moving goalpost kinda guy and I don't partake it that nonsense anymore.

You are the one with the problem, so you prove my assertion wrong if you wish. You don't need my or my 'evidence' to do that. See how that works?

 

[MnFish1]

I mean really there is no argument here - there are 100 different cycling/tank starting protocols

 

[MnFish1]

Evidence of what exactly? That the longer a system runs from day zero, the more its biology matures and/or undergoes changes. LoL - no thanks, you appear to be a moving goalpost kinda guy and I don't partake it that nonsense anymore.

You are the one with the problem, so you prove my assertion wrong if you wish. You don't need my or my evidence to do that. See how that works?

Yes - the longer a system goes from day 0 the more likely the biology changes. True. So? I have not clue exactly what your exact assertion is/was. And Yes - I do see how it works

 

[Cell]

fully agreed


and I myself will never, ever ever ever own a reef started with dry rock for the reasons Jay mentioned. I'll do only skip cycle cured live rock reefs, so that my 'biome is good on day one. basic ammonia control wouldn't have been an issue either way, but I like coralline indicators on rocks due to what that means about aging time, curing time, all kinds of inferred abilities come from coralline covered live rock.

you get to break most rules in reefing (but not disease preps) if we use coralline cured live rock from another reef tank.

I'm still a mostly dry rock guy. I want complete control over what goes in my display. There are obvious compromises to this if I'm using a sump though where I can keep undesirable things isolated.

 

[BeanAnimal]

"Patience" as a universal fixer of all things can have disastrous consequences in some situations. There is real danger to misdiagnosing disease as a cycling issue that could have been resolved with just a little more patience, for instance. While the idea of "patience" is great and applicable for the reefing hobby, I think it's used way too often for specific events that require equally specific answers, not just "patience".

I certainly do not think "patience" is the " universal fixer" and to argue otherwise is clearly ignoring the context of the comment and advice for the sake of argument. I don't get you guys that want to argue just for the sake of it.

The clear context here is/was getting started in the hobby and getting your system stocked.