6500k T5 Bulbs - Important Spectrums Missing in LEDs?

[hart24601]

you can't determine anything without quantifying what went from what to what..
I'm not completely adverse to your opinion but again.. say replacing 2 Kessil 360's w/ a 450W MH and getting better growth?
NO surprise considering the added photons..REGARDLESS of spectrum.
Same w/ say adding an 8 tube t5 (432W) vs 2 or 3 Kessils ect (270W)..

Adding t5's to an LED array and more growth again, NO surprise considering you are adding more photons..
Adding some Orphek strips might have done exactly the same thing.

Devil is ALWAYS in the details..

I guess some like things idiot proofed, others like a challenge..

No joke I have seen this exact thing at least a half dozen times locally.

“Wow my growth has exploded!”

Oh yea! That’s awesome. How many watts were you using and what did you go to?

“Oh I was running two kessils at 50% and now have 8 bulb t5. T5 rules!”

Not a shock!

Separate thing, isn’t kessil 0-10v and not pwm dimming?

 

[oreo54]

No joke I have seen this exact thing at least a half dozen times locally.

“Wow my growth has exploded!”

Oh yea! That’s awesome. How many watts were you using and what did you go to?

“Oh I was running two kessils at 50% and now have 8 bulb t5. T5 rules!”

Not a shock!

Separate thing, isn’t kessil 0-10v and not pwm dimming?

Keep in mind that even if the dim signal is 0-10V dc doesn't necessarily mean the output is not PWM dimmed.....

Only Kessil knows for sure..and they aren't exactly forthcoming...

 

[SteadyC]

So.... yay or nay on 6,500?? Yay or nay at adding more reds with an adjustable LED fixture?? I’m still trying to learn from this thread, despite all the garbage. Maybe I’ll just read Lasse, and only Lasse’s posts and gleam from those what I can.

 

[rockskimmerflow]

I've seen great success growing coral in client tanks under leds even with just cool white/rb chips. The key was always spread/diffusion and avoidance of hotspots. The color wasn't there on many acros, but they grew longterm so I doubt any lacking spectrum was going to prove fatal to their health.

Now, do I grow the corals I culture and offer for sale under LED? No, absolutely not. Cost effectiveness is T5HO for me all the way. I do run a pair of 250w radiums that handle a 7 x 3 raceway thats purely for SPS and acro in particular. Everything else in the grow room is under T5HO. I had a 190 dollar hydro type 6 x 54w T5HO go 7 years with bulb changes every 18 months before the fixture had to be retired. Show me some LED systems that can single handedly offer 324w of power covering an effective 5'x2.5' grow footprint and cost less than 1k total over 7 years. Not to mention, the t5 is basically a brand new light every 18 months after the bulb change. So thats just what works for me. May give LEDs a shot when the numbers make more sense from my perspective.

FWIW I've never seen a pure LED lit tank in person that I couldn't tell was LED. Something inherently unnatural about them to my eye. Halide, on the other hand, is very aesthetically pleasing from a realism effect to me.

 

[hart24601]

Keep in mind that even if the dim signal is 0-10V dc doesn't necessarily mean the output is not PWM dimmed.....

Only Kessil knows for sure..and they aren't exactly forthcoming...

I thought that is why kessils can’t get as dim, pretty much gets to 10% then off while pwm gets to that low moonlight level and kessils can’t do it especially considering how many people lovemoon lights - me included- if they could dim really low using pwm I don’t see why they wouldn’t and advertise moonlight features since it used to be the most wanted thing on kessils.

 

[oreo54]

I've seen great success growing coral in client tanks under leds even with just cool white/rb chips. The key was always spread/diffusion and avoidance of hotspots. The color wasn't there on many acros, but they grew longterm so I doubt any lacking spectrum was going to prove fatal to their health.

Now, do I grow the corals I culture and offer for sale under LED? No, absolutely not. Cost effectiveness is T5HO for me all the way. I do run a pair of 250w radiums that handle a 7 x 3 raceway thats purely for SPS and acro in particular. Everything else in the grow room is under T5HO. I had a 190 dollar hydro type 6 x 54w T5HO go 7 years with bulb changes every 18 months before the fixture had to be retired. Show me some LED systems that can single handedly offer 324w of power covering an effective 5'x2.5' grow footprint and cost less than 1k total over 7 years. Not to mention, the t5 is basically a brand new light every 18 months after the bulb change. So thats just what works for me. May give LEDs a shot when the numbers make more sense from my perspective.

FWIW I've never seen a pure LED lit tank in person that I couldn't tell was LED. Something inherently unnatural about them to my eye. Halide, on the other hand, is very aesthetically pleasing from a realism effect to me.

Makes perfect sense..but there is, again, that difference between commercial and personal use..and "hobbies" by there very nature are never "cost effective" usually.

Show me some LED systems that can single handedly offer 324w of power covering an effective 5'x2.5' grow footprint and cost less than 1k total over 7 years.

Yea, not happening w/ out building it ..BUT..

https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-reef-lights/1-sbox-basic.html
About 5 of these would be overkill at about 500 "real" watts total for a cost of about $674.. w/ extra for replacing a few bad drivers over 7 years..
CATCH though is the "UV" chips probably won't last that long..$70 for a replacement board or sweat equity and a couple bucks to re-solder new diodes..

as to look, yea here you there.. but unnatural is a product of poor spectrum spread, and easily corrected..
Technically the shading offered in LEd's is way more "natural" than say t5...suns rays arrive fairly perpendicular so shadowing is harsh except on overcast days..

 

[Lasse]

That´s right - One type of signal to the ballast and one other from the ballast to the LED is a normal scenario. Hint - if it is smooth to dim the last 10 % - at least 10 - 0% is dimmed with PWM.

Note also that modern T5 spectra is not full spectra - not at all. White LED is more full spectra compared with white or oceanic blue´s T5 today. These T5 is pure RGB or RGBA sources with high spectral tops in blue, green and red (and amber in RGBA)

Look at this from the first post

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Compare with this MH

​

These two spectra has nothing to do with each other - but stil - the traditionalists bundles them together and say - this is the stuff!!!

For me - its rather clear that there are other factors involved and that´s the original posters opinion as well (IMO). I have try to show my way of thinking in several posts. This is an attempt to avoid a post covering 2 pages. Maybe not so easy to follow but it is what it is.

Thank you a lot @SteadyC - but it is not true - there is @Sallstrom too I´m kidding - I made a Swedish joke - there is many post in this thread worth reading but I try to stick to the OP´s question.

The staff at the Maritime Museum of Gothenburg (including me) have done a lot of experiment in order to make a perfect LED fixture for the new 400 000 litres aquarium. We are rather sure that we know what we want and hope that we can realize this in the future.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[oreo54]

I thought that is why kessils can’t get as dim, pwm gets to that low moonlight level and kessils can’t do it.

sort of.. Meanwell driver that can be dimmed by multiple means but see the dim curves.. As far as I know both OUTPUTS are PWM dimmed regardless..
Difference is only in the control signal. Other drivers do work other ways, some have dual dimming but one is PWM out the other current control..
Point is the external signal is "translated" to a dim output..
It's the DIM "signal" that is the issue (well w/ these drivers).. dealing / fractions of a volt..
Don't know the exact reason but the bottom line is it's driver dependent.. but it's not signal dependent.
Apparently it is cheap and easy to "dim to zero" using PWM, not so cheap and easy to dim to zero using 0-10V regardless if the output decreases mA's or duty cycle (PWM).

Best as I understand it..and maybe th Meanwell switches to "current control" at those low of voltages..and diodes do get a wee bit "unstable" at very low currents..
I'm open for corrections if needed..

 

[oreo54]

The staff at the Maritime Museum of Gothenburg (including me) have done a lot of experiment in order to make a perfect LED fixture for the new 400 000 litres aquarium. We are rather sure that we know what we want and hope that we can realize this in the future.

Sincerely Lasse

Look to some of the new Luxeon chips..Their horticulture products have a good IR (skipped it in the below simulation) and 6500K white ("fresh fish" COB may be slightly better.. not sure if there is a real difference between fresh fish and sunplus 6500k.curves are "slightly" different but not by much). The "crisp white" is a low K oddball COB w/ violets inside for optical brightening whites.. like shirts, paper ect. Has some interesting properties..
May be able to cut down on ind. colors..

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Makes perfect sense..but there is, again, that difference between commercial and personal use..and "hobbies" by there very nature are never "cost effective" usually.


Yea, not happening w/ out building it ..BUT..

https://sbreeflights.com/sbox-reef-lights/1-sbox-basic.html
About 5 of these would be overkill at about 500 "real" watts total for a cost of about $674.. w/ extra for replacing a few bad drivers over 7 years..
CATCH though is the "UV" chips probably won't last that long..$70 for a replacement board or sweat equity and a couple bucks to re-solder new diodes..

as to look, yea here you there.. but unnatural is a product of poor spectrum spread, and easily corrected..
Technically the shading offered in LEd's is way more "natural" than say t5...suns rays arrive fairly perpendicular so shadowing is harsh except on overcast days..

Oh I agree. Hobbies are not supposed to be cost effective so when I hear people brag about saving a few bucks on power with their LED systems it baffles me. Nobody is 'saving' money being in this hobby that's for sure lol.

And yeah haha I'm sure that would work nicely in place of a 6 or 8 bulb 54w unit, but I'll take a single fixture rather than 5- with various maintenance likely needed on 1 or more of them over a 7 year span. I mean for the commercial usage case, from where I sit, there currently isn't a better mousetrap then a program start ballast driven, individual reflector T5HO solution. It's the material efficiency that makes them so attractive. 250W halides in large reflectors could likely be employed to even greater advantage in a grow system with a form factor more conducive to halide reflector spread patterns.

Of course, I don't dispute T5HO is not a natural look either. I don't think the unnatural effect is 'easily' corrected for LEDs though. Otherwise, we'd see it being done on tanks all over and I have yet to see it achieved. I have seen some T5 looking LED lit tanks but never one that matches halide. I find the light from T5HO less unpleasant to look at long term than most LED lit tanks, but definitely not any more natural in appearance. Both T5 and LED have an artificial feeling to them in my opinion. The natural shimmer and perfect color blending of halides is unbeatable from the multitude of different tanks I've seen so far in person.

 

[Lasse]

For the MH people maybe - but that spectra will kill our ability to see the fluorescence of our corals but for growing - maybe. If we with LED will walking the path of both acceptable growing and outstanding colours - IMO - we most look more closer to the spectra of modern T5.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[oreo54]

Of course, I don't dispute T5HO is not a natural look either. I don't think the unnatural effect is 'easily' corrected for LEDs though. Otherwise, we'd see it being done on tanks all over and I have yet to see it achieved

"Commercial" LED's aren't designed for natural looks, mostly for fluorescent pop...and adequate growth..


Want more shimmer.. disturb the surface more..


Like the opposite in greenhouses.. using Sodium vapor lamps..great growth and efficiency, ugly color..

In case you get the wrong idea.. I do understand your perspective 100%..
I have the same issue w/ freshies that use candy colored T5's .. Beautiful tanks but completely "unnatural" .. bugs me.. and I used to love those "growlux" colored tanks.. not anymore..

I know it bugs some but what is the point of a "library" if you never open books..

 

[oreo54]

For the MH people maybe - but that spectra will kill our ability to see the fluorescence of our corals but for growing - maybe. If we with LED will walking the path of both acceptable growing and outstanding colours - IMO - we most look more closer to the spectra of modern T5.

Sincerely Lasse

http://www.nichia.co.jp/en/product/led_sp_optisolis.html
Nichia, SORRA , Yuji and one other that is KYOcera ect. are dabbling in violet bases..
https://www.ledsmagazine.com/articl...-introduce-broad-spectrum-led-technology.html
http://www.buykorea.org/product-det...Near-Violet-Light-and-Phosphors--3019851.html
current "thinking" is moving (slowly) in that direction.. Violet pump emitters w/ RGB phosphors..Not much different than mercury emissions and RGB phosphors..
note though that efficiency takes a hit and the blue phosphors have stability problems..
but they do spread into the much ignored cyan range..
One other often overlooked tech is those cheap "full spectrum" LED's that use a broad spread red phosphor (actually 2) w/ a blue pump..

There is a lot of "up and coming" tech.. some will die, some live .. but unfortunately mediocrity usually wins out..

 

[Lasse]

Have used the cheap full spectrum chips to my refugium. They give a red look, really red look but you can still see all other colours too. Bad quality but I have some as reserv

Sincerely Lasse

 

[rockskimmerflow]

"Commercial" LED's aren't designed for natural looks, mostly for fluorescent pop...and adequate growth..


Want more shimmer.. disturb the surface more..


Like the opposite in greenhouses.. using Sodium vapor lamps..great growth and efficiency, ugly color..

In case you get the wrong idea.. I do understand your perspective 100%..
I have the same issue w/ freshies that use candy colored T5's .. Beautiful tanks but completely "unnatural" .. bugs me.. and I used to love those "growlux" colored tanks.. not anymore..

I know it bugs some but what is the point of a "library" if you never open books..

Again I agree about the commercial side. That's not what I was commenting on in terms of 'natural look'. I spec halides and actinic T5hO with a supplemental RB strip for dawn dusk effect if desired when a client wants a no expense spared reef setup. In terms of a commercial setting I'm less concerned about the visual appeal, but as you state - color and growth. That for me has T5HO in the lead again. The fluorescent pigment density and demarcation of SPS coral, anemones, and complex patterned pieces like acans under a bulb mix of heavy Blue Plus and True actinics is unrivaled to my eye. Take one of those pieces grown under that light and put it in an LED lit tank and it will pop insanely. The colors pigments then tend to reduce in density a bit under the LED over a few weeks IME, but still look awesome of course since most modern LED units for home setups are great at flattering corals. Now, put most any coral under a Radium lamp and it will expose any coloration deficiencies in a heartbeat. There's just no hiding things under a Radium to my eye. This is all personal preference when it comes to coloration at this point I suppose, but I do feel it has something to do with the richness of the total spectral composition and especially the fully blended UVA and violet component.

 

[Sallstrom]

So.... yay or nay on 6,500?? Yay or nay at adding more reds with an adjustable LED fixture?? I’m still trying to learn from this thread, despite all the garbage. Maybe I’ll just read Lasse, and only Lasse’s posts and gleam from those what I can.

Reading Lasses posts are a great idea, always informative (I got him on speed dial ).

I would say red light is great to add as long as it's not too much compared to the levels of blue. So use it but carefully, watch the corals close. Some theories say blue increases the corals tolerance for light/red wavelenghts, and from what I've seen that seems true.

 

[SDchris]

Note also that modern T5 spectra is not full spectra - not at all

we most look more closer to the spectra of modern T5.

Definitely.
If we take the spectral graphs of a x8 T5 bulb combo, say like: 3 blue+, 2coral+, 1 purple+, 1 actinic. Then take each T5 tube and try to come up with a LED combo to match. The LED combo is very different to any retail fixture.

Chris

 

[Lasse]

Definitely.
If we take the spectral graphs of a x8 T5 bulb combo, say like: 3 blue+, 2coral+, 1 purple+, 1 actinic. Then take each T5 tube and try to come up with a LED combo to match. The LED combo is very different to any retail fixture.

Chris

Before this fixture I used a Pacific Sun fixture without any white LEDs. I was 100% satisfied with the light but I was not 100 % sure of getting a new when my old break down. Because I already have a profilux computer I look at their Mitras LED bar 2 and found that it was rather pleased with that. They (IMO) haven't dare to run the whole way but (still IMO) they are on their way to the perfect solution. I chose 2 110 cm deep actinic, 1 pcs 110 cm actinic and one 100 cm Oceanic blue. Oceanic Blue because I want some wavelengths >700 nm and the 4500 K gives a little. But it is only around 10 watt of total 300 watt. I have 50 Watts of 740 nm to add later on if needed

Sincerely Lasse

 

[BoomCorals]

Of pure interest from me - @BoomCorals - did your LEDs contain much wavelengths over 600 nm and especially - over 700 nm?

Sincerly Lasse

The lights I used were SB Reef, Kessil, and Radion. I don't know the specifics of the wavelengths off the top of my head but I can tell you the settings I used in hopes that might help find the answer? SB Reef was 100% on blue and white channel. Radion I ran the AB+ profile at 100% intensity. Kessil I ran on the 2nd bluest color on the color wheel also at 100% intensity.

 

[shred5]

I usually stay out of these threads. Anyway a few points.
Par is really not a issue now a days if you use a good fixture, led, t-5 or halide. They all should produce enough par and I think it is a non issue. There are corals that like higher par than others but most fixtures can provide that.

I do think spectrum is very important and is a bigger issue than par now a days.
Also it is not the only about spectrum for the chlorophyll we need to worry about, it is way bigger than that. It is also creating the proper spectrum to cause corals to color up.
Corals have pigments and proteins and they are used for various things like sun block, changing the color of light or blocking certain colors they do not like. I think it is really mainly a issues for a some shallower water corals.


Now I am not talking about cranking up the royal blue to make a brown coral florescence, this seems to be a big trend in leds lately aka Walt Disney coral. Maybe because LEDS have a harder time producing the true colors in some corals.

I also think people focus so much on spectrum for chlorophyll they forget about other things.

Now for 6500 k I believe it is only a issue with some corals that come from shallower water. They are really the only corals that receive light around this spectrum.

I am going to say this Metal halides do put out UV to a previous comment .. I was working a long time under my Iwasakis once and got a little sunburn on my arm. I think UV is a issue with LEDS.

I also think LEDS will color up most corals just fine except some of shallow water SPS if you can over come the shading issues.

Shading should not be as bad as it used to be but that is still a issue because Aquarium led fixture manufacturers want to charge a fortune for inferior technology. When I was at Light-fair this year they had some unique ways of spreading out the lights better for leds. Light fixtures did not cost 500.00 a piece. We would not spec a fixture at that cost, no owner would want a lighting budget increased by 4 times to save a little on electricity.
Some of the fixture prices are way beyond what they should be for a chunk of plasic with some leds in them.