6500k T5 Bulbs - Important Spectrums Missing in LEDs?

[TaylorPilot]

Forget the corals and fish. Just an empty tank with rock and gravel in it. To my eyes the MH/Florescent combo pops in a way that I have never seen in an LED. If LED was cheaper, and it was scientifically proven that they grew corals better with more color for half the price, I'd still prefer the look of MH because of the way the light looks to my eyes.

To me it is like comparing LCD TVs to Plasma TVs. The Plasma just popped more, had better blacks, better contrast. They have been slowly improving LCD panels for almost 15 years and STILL a LCD panel can't produce the same pop. They are finally being phased out on the high end with OLED and eventually MicroLED panels. But for all this time LCD was winning out because of a few reason, but none of them were based on performance....

With all that said, I would never assume to project what is important to me in a light system onto others. For some, having a sleek fixture to hang over their expensive rimless tank in their contemporary living rooms may be more important than a 4.5687964% better growth rate you get running MHs. If one was truly better in every instance, the others would quit being made.

 

[oreo54]

If one was truly better in every instance, the others would quit being made.

O/T and for fun:
Though it seems logical sometimes it's "not quite true".
Besides generally speaking nothing can be better in every instance..

Outcome

The main determining factor between Betamax and VHS was the cost of the recorders and recording time. Betamax is, in theory, a superior recording format over VHS due to resolution (250 lines vs. 240 lines), slightly superior sound, and a more stable image; Betamax recorders were also of higher quality construction. But these differences were negligible to consumers, and thus did not justify either the extra cost of a Betamax VCR (which was often significantly more expensive than a VHS equivalent) or Betamax's shorter recording time.

What Sony did not take into account was what consumers wanted. While Betamax was believed to be the superior format in the minds of the public and press (due to excellent marketing by Sony), consumers wanted an affordable VCR (a VHS often cost hundreds of dollars less than a Betamax);[14] Sony believed that having better quality recordings was the key to success, and that consumers would be willing to pay a higher retail price for this, whereas it soon became clear that consumer desire was focused more intently on recording time, lower retail price, compatibility with other machines for sharing (as VHS was becoming the format in the majority of homes), brand loyalty to companies who licensed VHS (RCA, Magnavox, Zenith, Quasar, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, even JVC itself, etc.), and compatibility for easy transfer of information.[15] In addition, Sony, being the first producer to offer its technology, also thought it would establish Betamax as the leading format. This kind of lock-in and path dependence failed for Sony, but succeeded for JVC. For forty years JVC dominated the home market with its VHS, Super VHS and VHS-Compact formats, and collected billions in royalty payments.[16]{/quote]

 

[tsav87]

I am currently a T5 only user, but I saw those new Kessil A360X LED lights at MACNA over the weekend. Soooo tempting.

 

[shred5]

I am currently a T5 only user, but I saw those new Kessil A360X LED lights at MACNA over the weekend. Soooo tempting.

Kessil has the best color blending than any other led manufacturer I have seen... The negative to it is they have the worst shading of any led fixture and require supplemental lighting more than others. This is because they have such a tight led cluster.
Do not get me wrong I love Kessil and with supplemental they have the next best look after metal halide, they just require something to go with it.

 

[hart24601]

Kessil has the best color blending than any other led manufacturer I have seen... The negative to it is they have the worst shading of any led fixture and require supplemental lighting more than others. This is because they have such a tight led cluster.
Do not get me wrong I love Kessil and with supplemental they have the next best look after metal halide, they just require something to go with it.

I agree totally with this. Color separation drives me crazy. I also think a lot of, but not all, the kessil shading issues where when people were mounting the lights to maximize PAR, they didn't have the lights up high enough to have them reflect off the glass. Ideally you want the cone of light to almost spill over the edges of the tank, but I have seen a lot of people run them where they look only at where the light hit the bottom of the tank and then you lose all that reflection, which can be pretty significant. I think salty has a good graphic of this.

 

[tsav87]

I agree totally with this. Color separation drives me crazy. I also think a lot of, but not all, the kessil shading issues where when people were mounting the lights to maximize coverage, they didn't have the lights up high enough to have them reflect off the glass. Ideally you want the cone of light to almost spill over the edges of the tank, but I have seen a lot of people run them where they look only at where the light hit the bottom of the tank and then you lose all that reflection, which can be pretty significant. I think salty has a good graphic of this.

That actually make a ton of sense.

 

[SteadyC]

Reading Lasses posts are a great idea, always informative (I got him on speed dial ).

I would say red light is great to add as long as it's not too much compared to the levels of blue. So use it but carefully, watch the corals close. Some theories say blue increases the corals tolerance for light/red wavelenghts, and from what I've seen that seems true.

I was being sarcastic more than anything. I was meaning, that I was only gonna read the positives posts that were informative, and to the point of the OP’s question. I got tired and mad at all those points that had nothing to do with the question, and that’s why I posted what I did. Yay or nay with the spectrums being asked about. The MW vs. LED posts were ticking me off. Bottom line is, you’re da man too! .

Curious about greens too. And thanks for responding about reds.

 

[Sallstrom]

I was being sarcastic more than anything. I was meaning, that I was only gonna read the positives posts that were informative, and to the point of the OP’s question. I got tired and mad at all those points that had nothing to do with the question, and that’s why I posted what I did. Yay or nay with the spectrums being asked about. The MW vs. LED posts were ******* me off. Bottom line is, you’re da man too! .

Curious about greens too. And thanks for responding about reds.

Okey

When we tested coral oxygen production for certain wavelengths, we found that the corals used green light as well. Not as much as blue and red, but not far from.

 

[Lasse]

Green penetrate living tissues more than other wavelengths, hence - in spite of low efficiency - it can promote photosynthesis further down in the tissue. This you can in an easy way see by your self. Take a white LED flashlight and illuminate the upper side of a leaf, look on the backside. The colour you see is the colours of the photons passing through the tissue of the leaf!

Following statement are pure speculations of the importance of green in corals, I have no fact for this whatever!

IMO - green light will have more importance in corals with thick tissue - like LPS and softies. Corals with a thin tissue, like acropora spc and birds nests maybe not be favored as much as the others by green light. But this is pure speculation but based on some facts as the abundance of "fleshy" corals in the deep (green photons penetrate as deep as blue photons in water).

However - the tests David mentioned was don with help of bird nests and monties

Sincerely Lasse

 

[CO2doser]

I have an observation about 730nm, far red, maybe the missing part of LED.

I got this pocillopra this Feb. and fried on top by my DIY full LED light with nature white led. Someone suggested to reduce the white intensity, but I prefer more white less blue.

This pocillopra should be shallow water coral without fluorescent pigment. How it could strive under strong sunlight, but burned under LED white.

I search internet, found this thread and experiment about 730nm that Lasse had done before. 730nm is outside of photosynthesis range. For terrastrial plant, 730 means under shadow, and push plant to grow higher. I guess, it might has different meaning for coral, like index for strong light intensity to let coral do something for protection. I think, no scientific support, since 730 attenuate with depth, it not make sense to keep meaning of "shadowing" to aqua coral.

Anyway, I add 16x 3w 730 led. My DIY LED has total 72x 3w 450/470 blue led, and 8x 5050 white/RGB 90cm led strips .
Amazing, the burned top started to recovered. I am not sure whether it is acclimation of new light. I will not remove 730nm led to confirm the result, but someday after I setup my experiment tank.

Feb


March


May, the worst. After adding 730, the burnt stop.

October, recovery

 

[jda]

Only in this hobby do people want proof to put something back that exists in nature. It should be no shock to any wide-band thinker or true scientist that some IR would do good things. In every other discipline, you need to prove nature wrong, not nature right.

 

[oreo54]

sci·en·tif·ic meth·od

a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.
"criticism is the backbone of the scientific method"


7 Steps of the Scientific Method

• 
  
• Step 1- Question. The "thing" that you want to know. The question you want to answer.
• Step 2-Research. Conduct research. ...
• Step 3-Hypothesis.
• Step 4-Experiment. Test the hypothesis.
• Step 5-Observations. Data you collect during the experiment.
• Step 6-Results/Conclusion.

• Step 7- Communicate. Present/share your results. Replicate.

 

[jda]

Thanks for making my point more clear. Nobody using a cut spectrum light has done any of
this. Thanks. Nobody ever had a hypothesis nor test that IR was not needed, they just assumed so because their LED manufacturers did not put them in the product that they had purchased.

Alll of the banter that is spewed about on this board was worked backwards thought marketing, conjecture and monkey-see methodologies and not at all through a forward scientific method.

I am sure that the instinct coming to mind is to post a bunch of links to this or that, but spare me unless you have some original thoughts and experiences of your own.

 

[CO2doser]

Here is my diy full led light build to do the test of adding 730nm led. The test need to be repeated by my experimental tank built in the future, or someone interested to save top burnt coral.

Build Thread - 3' 250L reef & submerged algae scrubber

Hi, I like to challenge the current "how to knowledge" on reef aquarium through experiments on my 7 years reef tank to make the practice as easy as possible. Here is my setup, backside sump without skimmer, socks, and media. There is an algae scrubber, no bubble, only weak flow of sump...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[oreo54]

I am sure that the instinct coming to mind is to post a bunch of links to this or that, but spare me unless you have some original thoughts and experiences of your own.

Gotta love your passive aggressive approach to knowledge.. So cute..

 

[Lasse]

I have an observation about 730nm, far red, maybe the missing part of LED.

I got this pocillopra this Feb. and fried on top by my DIY full LED light with nature white led. Someone suggested to reduce the white intensity, but I prefer more white less blue.

This pocillopra should be shallow water coral without fluorescent pigment. How it could strive under strong sunlight, but burned under LED white.

I search internet, found this thread and experiment about 730nm that Lasse had done before. 730nm is outside of photosynthesis range. For terrastrial plant, 730 means under shadow, and push plant to grow higher. I guess, it might has different meaning for coral, like index for strong light intensity to let coral do something for protection. I think, no scientific support, since 730 attenuate with depth, it not make sense to keep meaning of "shadowing" to aqua coral.

Anyway, I add 16x 3w 730 led. My DIY LED has total 72x 3w 450/470 blue led, and 8x 5050 white/RGB 90cm led strips .
Amazing, the burned top started to recovered. I am not sure whether it is acclimation of new light. I will not remove 730nm led to confirm the result, but someday after I setup my experiment tank.

Feb


March


May, the worst. After adding 730, the burnt stop.

October, recovery

Excellent - @Dana Riddle - I think this highlight your explanation the mechanisms of far red for corals - it helps to order the electron transport between PS1 and PS2 in case of oversaturation of photons. In this case - it could serve as a protection against too high light radiation.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[CO2doser]

Lasse, what is the theory? Like to know detail. Is reduce O radical damaging?

 

[jda]

It is called Emerson Effect.

This is the leading candidate for an explanation why 500-1000+ PPFD from a MH/T5, of 2000+ PAR from the sun will allow corals to thrive, but you better stop at 350-400 PAR from a LED or else your corals can burn. Orphek has put their money that 850nm is the way to go and had added them to their Atlantik V4.

There are theories that it helps with "too much" and it could also help to allow electrons to just "move out" to the next photosystem instead of being "trapped" in the previous, so it could be necessary for even a normal amount of light. Nobody really seems to know. In any case, there are enough burnt corals in hobbyist tanks at PPFD levels that are significantly lower than other light methods with IR that do not burn corals.

IR is tough for a LED manufacturer... once they are added back in, then LEDs have some of the same heat issues that MH can if you are not careful. This takes away from some of the value-add that the manufacturers promise.

 

[oreo54]

IR is tough for a LED manufacturer... once they are added back in, then LEDs have some of the same heat issues that MH can if you are not careful. This takes away from some of the value-add that the manufacturers promise.

Do you have a reference for that, say for <900nm?

https://www.mouser.com/pdfDocs/SFH4170S_EN.pdf

https://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/12803/Infrared-LEDs-as-Heaters

 

[Lasse]

IMO - the far red active in the Emerson effect is between 700-760 nm with a peak around 730 nm. This is at least the wavelength actual for green plants (730 nm). Why Orphek have chose 850 nm - I have no idea - however you have to be very careful with the intensity when using Atlantic 4.

@CO2doser The way I have understand it it will increase the yield of PS2 - which would increase the O produced. At first sight - the damage would not be due to radical O production - but I do not really know. My hope was that @Dana Riddle should jump in and explain - but he just hit the like button

Sincerely Lasse