99.9% RTN

[DNA]

I'm not looking for a quick fix here, but an educated clue would be nice.

For many years I've been adding SPS test frags that look okay for a week, but a week later the tissue is gone besides from a few polyps that can linger for months before they die as well.
The key words here are two weeks and 0.1% polyp survival rate.

The whole story is a huge wall of text so lets keep this on topic.

 

[KrisReef]

Something isn't right (Duh, I know).

With frags lasting only a short time there must be something in the tank that takes out the corals quickly.

All I have is guesses, in no particular order :

1. Light is too dim or too bright (LED's, if you have them, can do this.)
2. Not enough water circulation in the tank.
3. Something toxic in the water.

3 isnt likely because a few polyps survive for awhile, should kill them all.
2. Is more interesting, but has similar expectations in that it should kill them all.

Leaving us with light, and no way to determine from the original post if I guessed correctly.

Otherwise you have a coral pest, or a combination of all of these?

Welcome to Reef2Reef. Water circulation, water chemistry, and proper lighting spectrum information required for more guesses. I gotta go to work.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

I'm not looking for a quick fix here, but an educated clue would be nice.

For many years I've been adding SPS test frags that look okay for a week, but a week later the tissue is gone besides from a few polyps that can linger for months before they die as well.
The key words here are two weeks and 0.1% polyp survival rate.

The whole story is a huge wall of text so lets keep this on topic.

Do you do regular water changes? Are you testing your water parameters? If you are, what are the parameters

 

[Pod_01]

My experience tells me, dead SPS in two weeks is water parameter related.
Any time I mess up water parameters it takes about 2 weeks to show. There you go my educated guess is your parameters are off.
In the end acros (SPS) don’t lie so any argument like my parameters are on point, we’ll explain it to them first.

Good luck,

 

[TheSheff]

It legit could be anything : too little flow, too much flow, bad nutrient levels, alk, calc, and mag levels that are off, fish that are eating them, too much light, too little light, ph is wayyyy too low, coral pests. There are so many things that could cause this. I think that a list of your current parameters as well as some pictures and details about your setup could help us figure out the answer to your issue.

 

[Garf]

I'm not looking for a quick fix here, but an educated clue would be nice.

For many years I've been adding SPS test frags that look okay for a week, but a week later the tissue is gone besides from a few polyps that can linger for months before they die as well.
The key words here are two weeks and 0.1% polyp survival rate.

The whole story is a huge wall of text so lets keep this on topic.

Have you got some big softies in there?

 

[backbayreef]

I’ve had this challenge way back when I first started with SPS but honestly, I’ve been very “lucky” - I have not lost a single frag (even fresh cut ones) moving across my tanks with slightly different parameters. My Alk, CA, and Mg are slightly different but something is the same: both tanks are running with higher N & P than others. I run both tanks at 25+ nitrate and 0.2+ phosphate. Also, both tanks are more than one year old.

@DNA — given you’ve been doing this for years, what are your water parameters (not chasing a number but are they stable?) and are you starving your corals?

 

[Dburr1014]

Let's see a pic of the tank and your parameters.

 

[DNA]

Thank you for your replies.

Iv'e looked at most of your concerns in multiple ways so those are highly unlikely, but something toxic is possible and long term effects from dino toxins are unknown. It's been years since I conquered them though.

There are no leathers, the 320g tank is stable, not starved and you may take a peek at my last ICP test from two years ago and let me know if you see something lethal in those numbers.

 

[Reefing102]

The only thing I’m really seeing, and I’m far from a water quality or SPS expert, is iodine seems quite low. While it’s not anything I normally dose, I know Dr. Mac @PacificEastAquaculture doses iodine in his systems. And several others dose it too. I’m curious if too low of a value can have that significant of an effect.

@JCOLE @o2manyfish thoughts here?

 

[Cichlid Dad]

An icp test from two years ago won't tell you what is going on today. The only way to get you help is to know what today your cal alk mag and are you doing water changes and how often. What light schedule you have and lights used. Reason for water change schedule is it will tell us if trace elements are being added back to the tank

 

[shakacuz]

stray voltage? corroding equipment? any changes prior, and then during the peak of this RTN?

a recent ICP would be very beneficial to your help.

 

[NoohpyT]

Temp stability? This has been the only thing that has taken out an acro colony for me, gotta love those hot cali summers

 

[Cichlid Dad]

Temp stability? This has been the only thing that has taken out an acro colony for me, gotta love those hot cali summers

I just got home from Palm Springs, 119 on Saturday! That is hot and I don't care if it was dry heat! You walk outside and feel like 100 hair dryer 's are pointed at you. I feel your pain brother

 

[NoohpyT]

I just got home from Palm Springs, 119 on Saturday! That is hot and I don't care if it was dry heat! You walk outside and feel like 100 hair dryer 's are pointed at you. I feel your pain brother

Yeah it's terrible! I'm currently running my AC 24/7 but now my PH is taking a dive, there's always a fight with something in this hobby lol

 

[hunterallen40]

Thank you for your replies.

Iv'e looked at most of your concerns in multiple ways so those are highly unlikely, but something toxic is possible and long term effects from dino toxins are unknown. It's been years since I conquered them though.

There are no leathers, the 320g tank is stable, not starved and you may take a peek at my last ICP test from two years ago and let me know if you see something lethal in those numbers.

Given the age of those ICP results, I don't think we can use those to determine much of anything, other than the fact that you did not have pollutants two years ago, and your salinity looks kind of low (which is typical for ICP results).

The following info would be great:

* What is your maintenance routine?

* What SPS are you trying?

* What is your alkalinity, calcium + magnesium?

* What is your phosphate and nitrate?

* What are you using for flow?

* What are you using for lights?

* What corals are you able to keep and grow?

* Are you dosing anything, and, if so, what? How much?

It's entirely possible that the answers to all of these questions will be reasonable, but we should look at them before we start shrugging and blaming the boogie man.

This could be more complicated than parameters. Just need to rule out water quality & stability first.

 

[ninjamyst]

What are your parameters last week or last month? If you can't answer that every week or every month, keeping acros is like flushing water down the drain. I thought I can get away with not testing and just rely on consistent water changes and health of corals to tell me how things are going but boy was I wrong. I lost thousands of dollars in acro frags because I didn't keep track of my nitrate / phosphate / alk and they got all out of whack. Half of my acros look great while half RTN or STN for no reason.

 

[DNA]

Given the time span of this problem a two year old ICP test is quite recent and these specific RTN symptoms were the same then as they are now. Still I have another ICP test planned soon. I've tried so many things over so many years there is hardly anything left to try out.

I really wanted to spare you the huge wall of text that people would not bother to read anyway, but nobody today at least has encountered RTN in this way so here are some quick answers.

For maintenance I've left it alone for 6 months to extreme care and everything between.
I use test kits for 7 parameters and measure for stray voltage and check for corrosion.

For water changes I've tried from none to 15% a week for months.

I've tried acros mostly in the past, but now I aim mostly for the easier corals like turbinaria or montipora.

Yesterdays parameters: Ca 420, Alk, 8.5, Mg 1450, Phosphate 0.02 Nitrate 0.20.

For flow right now I'm using 2 Tunze Streams and the return pump of course.
I've tried lots of different flow setups using 3-6 pumps.

For lighting I have 3 Coral Care and two Red sea reefer led lights.
I know of tanks of similar size that can keep the most light demanding coral alive with 3 Coral Cares.
Of course I've tried lots of various lenghts and intensities and even placed same species high and low for comparison.

Hammers have done well and I had lots of Monti caps since they grew very well, but I lost them all over a few months time about two years ago.

The fish are doing grea tand I have no problem keeping fish like mandarin, anthias and copperband alive for years.

You totally forgot to ask me about biome and bacteria since in the modern reefkeeping world of boat rock and limited bio diversity that is where I'm looking right now for answers. I had success with SPS for the first 10 years in the hobby, when I knew a lot less than I do now.

I have 20+ years of experience, abundance of patience, heaps of knowledge and the will to carry on.

Enough of text already.

 

[hunterallen40]

I really wanted to spare you the huge wall of text that people would not bother to read anyway, but nobody today at least has encountered RTN in this way so here are some quick answers.

Some problems are not surface level, and do require a wall of text to get to the bottom of. I can tell you are frustrated, and I'm sure this isn't the first time you've discussed this issue / answered these questions, so thanks for taking the time to get back to us!

Yesterdays parameters: Ca 420, Alk, 8.5, Mg 1450, Phosphate 0.02 Nitrate 0.20.

In my experience, I have had better luck with phosphates around 0.1 and nitrates > 10 for acros. Not sure if you've tried higher nutrients, but might be worth a shot.

You totally forgot to ask me about biome and bacteria since in the modern reefkeeping world of boat rock and limited bio diversity that is where I'm looking right now for answers.

If you have truly ruled everything out, you may need to consider a bacterial pathogen. Not saying this is definitely the case, but it is a possibility.

 

[Pod_01]

I feel there is some frustration so I will try to keep it short.
I suspect your issue is:

Phosphate 0.02

Bring that up to 0.1 keep it there for 2-3 weeks and try another acro or two.
At the same time since I see no information on filtering don’t use GFO or Al absorbers, don’t use fleece filter same for sock and fuge etc… If you are using UV /ozone consider putting them off line.
Activated carbon at 20ml per 100L/25gal can be used, changed once every 4-6 weeks.

Good luck,

P.S. bio diversity is important but on R2R the topic can be hot potato. As in provide scholarly articles etc…
In my opinion you can try to use Tropic Marin Plus-NP or TM Bacto Ballance to promote bacteria, (0.5 ml/ 50gal a day). Also TM Nitrobiotic can help. I used these products and they helped me get my SPS growing in dry rock reef. Up to that point I was admiring nice dead SPS.
Other products might work but I only have experience with these.