don_chuwish

Smells something fishy
View Badges
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,013
Reaction score
3,386
Location
A better place
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Well I can contribute that using too much H2O2 in will kill your "Hollywood Stunner" chalice, and maybe the red plating monti... and probably the "Seasons Greetings" encrusting monti. I'm so mad at myself!
Used a feeding tube to squirt some 3% at a few pesky algae spots, watched them bubble for a bit and then got circulation going again. Next morning all the green was gone from the chalice and encrusting monti and the bright red of the plating monti had gone dull. I'm just waiting now for flesh to slough off.
 

Lasse

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
10,830
Reaction score
29,794
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I use an oxidator in my tank since day 1. There is a lot of experiences using this type of rather safe dosing of H2O2. I basic mode - the H2O2 concentration I use and the number of catalyst is adjusted for removing yellow substance - but it is easy to adjust the daily dose if there is other tasks to be done.

If you dose directly into the aquarium - a redox meter can be useful in order to determine the amount of free radicals released and also see how much organic that will be oxidized.

IMO - The release of radicals is a reduction process - (H2O2 lose one O either into O radicals or/and OH radicals) - and it lower the ORP. The next steps when O or/and OH radicals oxidize organic matter will rise the ORP. If there is a balance between release of radicals and their oxidizing behavior - you will have a steady ORP. This is totally IMO and I do not know if it is true or not,

When using peroxide in more commercial applications - it have been discussed if it will be = radicals or OH radical formed. If it is OH radicals formed - it should probably be possible to see this in your pH measures.

I have had my oxydator placed in my sump there my return pump is placed. My redox and pH probes is situated in a apartment before the return chamber. Recently I move my oxydator into the same compartment that host my probes. I got some surprising results of my pH readings. During summer - my pH vary between 8.15 - 8.40 and during wintertime between 8 and 8.20. Look at this graph. The red circles show when I refill my oxydator and some free H2O2 come out directly. At the first event - it was placed after the probes ant the water that come to the probes had to pass the DT and the refugium. We only see a slight dpress of the ORP and a not significant rise in pH. At the second and third red circle - the oxydator is placed in the same compartment as my probes (around 40 L with a flow of around 1500 l/h

1611062105013.png

What happens in the blue circle? In one of my modules I had a lot of Aiptasia and decided to try to eradicate them with help of H2O2. I dosed around 30 ml 12% in that chamber - I have around 310 L in my DT. The water from this chamber travell out to the DT - through my refugium and down to the chamber with probes. There is a tendency of rising pH

The interesting thing is for the moment whats happen in my chamber with both an oxidator and my redox and pH probe. The rise of pH a new experiences for me. Only time can say if this is real or if it is something that can be explained with s-t happens,

My CO2 in the room has been nearly the same since beginning of december

1611065017693.png





1611064948535.png

The dose of NaCO3 have been the same (Core 7 a+b)

Since 1/1

1611065350101.png

last three days

1611065506161.png



The only explanation for the last rise of the pH in that apartment I can get for now is that a lot of OH radicals has been formed by the peroxid since I fill up the Oxidator yesterday. This is - for sure - very controversial. To be sure of this - I need to be able to repeat this next time I refill - and probably more times:D

1611065854855.png

@atoll I think that this above will be interesting for you

Sincerely Lasse
 

MrsBugmaster

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
4,036
Reaction score
21,517
Location
Indiana
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Twice I dipped blue neon gobies in the recommended dosage and within minutes all gobies went belly up. Scooped them out right away and put in fresh salt water but both times they all were dead already. So I would not use peroxide dip on these gobies .
 

atoll

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
4,742
Reaction score
8,095
Location
Wales UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
It would seem like an ideal solution to sterilize tanks. When COVID hit (and everyone was disinfecting everything) I read an article stating that using pure H2O2 (in a spray bottle) is an almost instant disinfectant, whereas bleach and other disinfectants are technically supposed to 'soak' on a surface for several minutes before you wipe them off.
Point of order Mr chairman hydrogen peroxide is a bleach.
Quote "Hydrogen peroxide is one of the most common bleaching agents. The positive aspects of hydrogen peroxide include the fact that it is highly environment-friendly (decomposes to O2 and H2O),"
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,288
Reaction score
25,189
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Point of order Mr chairman hydrogen peroxide is a bleach.
Quote "Hydrogen peroxide is one of the most common bleaching agents. The positive aspects of hydrogen peroxide include the fact that it is highly environment-friendly (decomposes to O2 and H2O),"
Oddly, while H2O2 is used in ndustry for bleaching paper, it doesn’t work as well as household bleach on algae. Last week I ran a side by side test at various concentrations of bleach and peroxide on samples with hydroids and algae...bleach outperformed the peroxide n terms of decolorization at every concentration I tested. I was surprised ....
Jay
 

atoll

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
4,742
Reaction score
8,095
Location
Wales UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Oddly, while H2O2 is used in ndustry for bleaching paper, it doesn’t work as well as household bleach on algae. Last week I ran a side by side test at various concentrations of bleach and peroxide on samples with hydroids and algae...bleach outperformed the peroxide n terms of decolorization at every concentration I tested. I was surprised ....
Jay
But it's still classed as a bleach commonly used by women to bleach their hair.
I don't advocate the use of thick bleach but the more "traditional thin bleach" thick bleach takes more rinsing.
We have a brand of bleach in the UK commonly used for toilet bowl cleaning. They go to great pains to point out it breaks down into oxygen and water and is therefore good for the environment. They use that as a selling point.
 
Last edited:

Lasse

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
10,830
Reaction score
29,794
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
household bleach
Household bleach works but the oxidized product will be an organochlorine substance. One of the reasons why Swedish and Finish paper mills skip chlorine as a bleach back in the 80:ties was studies that show that these products both was accumulated in different animals tissue and was transformed in the sediments outside the mills - often to very toxic substances. I was a part of a group (I was one of the fish keepers) that study different metabolites (found in the sediment outside some mills) toxicity and effect on danios ant their fecundity. The things I saw in our studies make me take a decision to never ever use active chlorine in any application I was part of. These compounds is stored in the fat of the fishes and when eggs are formed - they will be concentrated in the fat parts of the eggs. There is at least one known diseases among wild salmons in the Baltic that is linked to the total contents of organochlorines in the body fat. Swim-up syndrome in salmon female and fry in the Great Lakes is IMO a result of this. Officially - it is linked to Thiamine deficiency but no one want to discuss why this deficiency comes from. IMO it is a secondary effect caused by free chlorine radicals that will be released when the chlorinated fat is consumed from the egg sac of the fry. Thiamine is a very effective anti radical.

I would never ever use active chlorine when I handle fish and fish equipment. It is a big No-No for me. I either do not use it in my household. I get angry on my colleges when they use chlorine in order to get better hatching of artemia.

H2O2 is a good substitute for active chlorine - only given compounds with oxygen, oxygen gas and water as residues.

Sincerely Lasse
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,288
Reaction score
25,189
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Lasse,
But my test proved that peroxide would not work in this case. We needed to bleach algae and polyps from a moon jelly exhibit. I ran a 24 hour test using 7% peroxide and 5% bleach. I diluted these 1:2, 1:5, 1:10 and 1:20. Even the 1:2 peroxide (about 3%) did not clear the algae or digest the polyps. The 1:10 bleach did, in just 6 hours.
Jay
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,288
Reaction score
25,189
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
But it's still classed as a bleach commonly used by women to bleach their hair.
I don't advocate the use of thick bleach but the more "traditional thin bleach" thick bleach takes more rinsing.
We have a brand of bleach in the UK commonly used for toilet bowl cleaning. They go to great pains to point out it breaks down into oxygen and water and is therefore good for the environment. They use that as a selling point.
Right, but it clearly did not bleach algae cells as well as sodium hypochlorite did at the same concentration. I’ll put my study up here when I’m done, I’m learning a lot more about it that is pretty surprising...
Jay
 

atoll

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
4,742
Reaction score
8,095
Location
Wales UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Right, but it clearly did not bleach algae cells as well as sodium hypochlorite did at the same concentration. I’ll put my study up here when I’m done, I’m learning a lot more about it that is pretty surprising...
Jay
Am sure other bleaches will work better than hydrogen peroxide, that was not my point. Peroxide is still a bleach. Also, as pointed out by Brandon there are many species of GHA and am sure many will be more resistant to peroxide than others. So a certain concentration may work in eradicating one species but may not work on another.
 

Lasse

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
10,830
Reaction score
29,794
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Lasse,
But my test proved that peroxide would not work in this case. We needed to bleach algae and polyps from a moon jelly exhibit. I ran a 24 hour test using 7% peroxide and 5% bleach. I diluted these 1:2, 1:5, 1:10 and 1:20. Even the 1:2 peroxide (about 3%) did not clear the algae or digest the polyps. The 1:10 bleach did, in just 6 hours.
Jay
Its a question of concentrations. You need to consider if you want to take a biological risk and use a known biomagnifying agent but works in lower concentrations (cheaper) or a more risk free agent that will leave no dangerous residues but need a higher concentration (more expensive) Only 3 % peroxide will not kill anything with cell walls at all. No doubt hypochlorite is more effective but much more dangerous in the long run. If it will form organochlorines - it will end up in the fat of the living animals sooner or later.

If you want - test with H2O2 and a very small amount of ozone combined. The toxic effect is depended on how fast the H2O2 will breakdown and produce the active radicals. A very low concentration of ozone will speed up the process very much. 1+1 = 3 in a way.

Sincerely Lasse
 

rebels23

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 2, 2020
Messages
129
Reaction score
38
Location
NYC
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Its a question of concentrations. You need to consider if you want to take a biological risk and use a known biomagnifying agent but works in lower concentrations (cheaper) or a more risk free agent that will leave no dangerous residues but need a higher concentration (more expensive) Only 3 % peroxide will not kill anything with cell walls at all. No doubt hypochlorite is more effective but much more dangerous in the long run. If it will form organochlorines - it will end up in the fat of the living animals sooner or later.

If you want - test with H2O2 and a very small amount of ozone combined. The toxic effect is depended on how fast the H2O2 will breakdown and produce the active radicals. A very low concentration of ozone will speed up the process very much. 1+1 = 3 in a way.

Sincerely Lasse
Lasse,

Always appreciate your insight as you are very experienced. Many folks are using 3% hydrogen peroxide (from drug stores) for the tank transfer method to try and eliminate velvet, flukes, surface parasites, etc.

Are you saying you think 3% H2O2 is not effective in this case? Thanks
 

Lasse

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 20, 2016
Messages
10,830
Reaction score
29,794
Location
Källarliden 14 D Bohus, Sweden
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
You mentioned not using chlorine to remove the eggshell of artemia. Have you used hydrogen peroxide instead?
For the moment - we do not hatch any artemia - I have to pick up that war when we need to hatch again - for the moment cease-fire:D:D

Lasse,

Always appreciate your insight as you are very experienced. Many folks are using 3% hydrogen peroxide (from drug stores) for the tank transfer method to try and eliminate velvet, flukes, surface parasites, etc.

Are you saying you think 3% H2O2 is not effective in this case? Thanks
This is a very tricky question to answer because it is not the H2O2 itself that give the killing effect (or bleach if you are out for that) - it is the different types of radicals that is formed when H2O2 breaks down that kill and the rate they are formed its important. Different compounds in the water can alter the the rate of break down - iron has been mentioned. UVC build on low pressure amalgam lamps rise the rate to nearly 100 % and ozone can speed it up

It is worth to mention that the concentrations of H2O2 used for short bath of atlantic salmon (against see-lice) is around 1g/L (1000 mg/L - around 1000 ppm) And what I understand it refers to 100 % H2O2 solution. It means that if you should use 3% peroxid and we say that 1 g = 1 ml - you need around 33 ml per L in order to get a effective bath during 30 minutes. Salmon manage this but this does not means that all fish manage it.

However - if a low concentration is uphold during a prolonged period it could work. If you use 1 ml 3% solution to 1 L water you will have an concentration of 30 mg H2O2 /L. If you use 1 ml 3% to 10 G - you will have a final concentration of around 0.79 mg/L

From this article
Hydrogen peroxide concentrations < or =1.25 mg L(-1) had no significant effect on Daphnia time to death compared to controls and no significant effect on the time to first brood production and the number of broods produced. Concentrations < or =0.63 mg L(-1) had no significant effect on the total number of young produced. Concentrations > or =0.32 mg L(-1) had a negative effect on Daphnia growth. Hydrogen peroxide had no significant effect on the gender ratio of young produced. All second generation Daphnia were female. A continuous discharge of hydrogen peroxide into aquatic ecosystems is not likely to affect cladocerans if the concentration is maintained at < or =0.63 mg L(-1) for less than 21 days.

The concentration - withhold for a prolonged period can have effect - at least it is near the concentrations affecting water flies.

The problem however is - how do you withhold this concentration without measure the hydrogen concentration.

However - it maybe will give a ground to understand why oxydators works as good as they do. A low concentration in a continuous flow. The Schöting Oxydator is equipped with a second catalyst that minimize the amount of non catalyst H2O2 out in the aquarium. However - if you want to have a continuous flow of pure peroxide out into the aquarium (letting the production of radicals happen in the DT) you can use a simple DIY construction- A small pet bottle, upside down, fixed not to flow up and a small hole in the cap. Use a small platina piece as a catalyst. You need to start with very low concentrations and rather small catalyst till you get the effect you want.

I can admit that this is not a rather good answer - but it is the best I can give for the moment.

Sincerely Lasse
 

radiata

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 2, 2015
Messages
1,088
Reaction score
763
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Lasse,

Always appreciate your insight as you are very experienced. Many folks are using 3% hydrogen peroxide (from drug stores) for the tank transfer method to try and eliminate velvet, flukes, surface parasites, etc.

Are you saying you think 3% H2O2 is not effective in this case? Thanks

This is the first I've seen with regards to using H2O2 for the TTM quarantine method. What is the recommended dosage for 3% H2O2?
 

rebels23

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 2, 2020
Messages
129
Reaction score
38
Location
NYC
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I use 150 ppm of H2O2. Any of these will give you 150 ppm

- 1.25 ml of 3% H2O2 per 1 cup of saltwater OR

- 5 ml of 3% H2O2 per 1 liter of saltwater OR

- 20 ml of 3% H2O2 per 1 gallon of saltwater
 

Jay Hemdal

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
25,288
Reaction score
25,189
Location
Dundee, MI
Rating - 0%
0   0   0

atoll

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
4,742
Reaction score
8,095
Location
Wales UK
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Around 33 years using an Oxydator with 9 reef aquariums in that time. I wouldn't run a marine aquarium without one and am far from alone in that.
 

Mastering the art of locking and unlocking water pathways: What type of valves do you have on your aquarium plumbing?

  • Ball valves.

    Votes: 66 51.6%
  • Gate valves.

    Votes: 67 52.3%
  • Check valves.

    Votes: 32 25.0%
  • None.

    Votes: 29 22.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 9 7.0%
Back
Top