A discussion on immunity

[dbrewsky]

My view and experience on this is: the majority of fish that are afflicted when we receive them, are suffering from some form of parasite, whether this be ich/book/worms/flukes/etc. These organisms are complex life forms compared to bacteria and viruses, and due to the nature of the closed systems we support, can quickly overwhelm an aquarium. Every single parasite attachment point,creates a open wound, however small, during some part of the life cycle. These wounds, including other physical trauma are the entry point for bacteria and viruses that are otherwise present in most aquariums and are allowed to bypass the slime coat and begin to colonize. Without these entry points, these bacteria would otherwise be benign.

I think from a root-cause perspective that this is being looked at from the end rather than the beginning. If a parasite is allowed to remain in a ecosystem, they will continue to feed regardless of whether its killing a fish or being "managed." Every time the parasite creates an infection point their is a chance the fish will be attacked by the bacteria/virus. Under healthy conditions the infection is attacked , but as soon as they become stressed, old, or injured, the likely hood of terminal infection increase exponentially. This is where the immunity perspective comes in that is being discussed. I feel that these infectious agents are the end result of trauma and stress on the organism, not the initial cause of the issue.

 

[Paul B]

I am so confused, I am not sure if Bios agrees with me, disagrees, hates me and wants to see someone stick a long spined sea urchin in my eye or feels I hate scientists. (I did say he was smarter than I was)
I probably said somewhere (and I still agree with it) that scientific studies of diseases and parasites only last a few months or until the money runs out. That will give us some insight as to the parasites lifecycle but it isn't as important to me unless that scientist has a fish tank with that organism in it for a bunch of years, not just a few months. I think we should do a study at least as long as the fishes lifespan which in a clownfish is about 30 years.
My tank certainly is not a scientific study or any other type of study. But it proves (due to it's age) that fish, all different types of fish, can remain immune from just about everything for their entire lifespan while being introduced to many disease organisms. I can't explain it as I am not a scientist, researcher or ball room dancer. But I know how to achieve it and have done it for decades. Of course I can't prove it as I am not the God of fish tanks (unless they have a reverse undergravel filter) I can look up statistics and post charts of a parasite's life cycle as many people do. But that means little to someone with a tank full of ich. I am just trying (unsuccessfully I think) to explain how I achieve seeming immunity. Maybe they are not immune, maybe it is just my good looks or pictures of Supermodels I have. Maybe I have been extremely lucky for 45 years or the mud and amphipods I add. I am not sure, but I try to post my thoughts just in case anyone is interested. I started this thread and no one has to agree with it or read it. There are so many threads and posters on here I don't agree with so instead of reading those threads I make linguini and clams. :eek:

 

[Reef_Hobbyist]

If you could carefully collect a fish from the wild with the least amount of stress possible (no drugs, no shipping, etc.) and get it into an extremely large tank in that local area with a close match to its wild environment replicating all aspects including live food, stable conditions and a life with the least amount of stress possible, I would suspect that fish would do quite well. Anything short of that puts a higher burden on that animal's immune system. So its remarkable how well they actually do given what actually happens to them.

 

[Paul B]

That is true. I collect fish all the time in the wild and put them in my reef. Never had any problems with disease, parasites or anything else.
I collect these butterfly fish all the time and put them in my tank along with anything else interesting I catch

 

[bios]

I am so confused, I am not sure if Bios agrees with me, disagrees, hates me and wants to see someone stick a long spined sea urchin in my eye or feels I hate scientists. (I did say he was smarter than I was)
I probably said somewhere (and I still agree with it) that scientific studies of diseases and parasites only last a few months or until the money runs out. That will give us some insight as to the parasites lifecycle but it isn't as important to me unless that scientist has a fish tank with that organism in it for a bunch of years, not just a few months. I think we should do a study at least as long as the fishes lifespan which in a clownfish is about 30 years.
My tank certainly is not a scientific study or any other type of study. But it proves (due to it's age) that fish, all different types of fish, can remain immune from just about everything for their entire lifespan while being introduced to many disease organisms. I can't explain it as I am not a scientist, researcher or ball room dancer. But I know how to achieve it and have done it for decades. Of course I can't prove it as I am not the God of fish tanks (unless they have a reverse undergravel filter) I can look up statistics and post charts of a parasite's life cycle as many people do. But that means little to someone with a tank full of ich. I am just trying (unsuccessfully I think) to explain how I achieve seeming immunity. Maybe they are not immune, maybe it is just my good looks or pictures of Supermodels I have. Maybe I have been extremely lucky for 45 years or the mud and amphipods I add. I am not sure, but I try to post my thoughts just in case anyone is interested. I started this thread and no one has to agree with it or read it. There are so many threads and posters on here I don't agree with so instead of reading those threads I make linguini and clams. :eek:

No i dont hate you, i appreciate your point of view
You say some right thing in a wrong way....
Give you the answer of something you dont understand.
First many people say oh my fish die in hospital tank treated with copper or antibiotics..
He destroy liver of his fish and it die or sometimes demage it irreversibly And it survive
Also some one say my fish do not spawn why?
They have done the same of above and then liver that is essential to produce protein for spawn, i demaged

 

[bios]

So the longevity and spawnish you have in your tank is a right way.

 

[bios]

Sorry writing with smart phone
Spawing

 

[Paul B]

So the longevity and spawnish you have in your tank is a right way.

In my opinion, Yes. Also IMO only the healthiest fish will spawn and only healthy fish will live to what we perceive is their normal lifespan. If you keep for instance clownfish, and you have them for 5 years, they never spawn then they die, I feel that clownfish was not in good condition. But if you had a clownfish for 25 years and it spawned 50 times, I would consider that a healthy fish. Would it not be?
Also if a fish gets sick multiple times if conditions falter, there is a blackout or you go away on vacation for a few days. Very healthy fish will not be bothered by such things. My power has gone out many times in the last 40 years, sometimes for 5 days. I never lost a fish because of that. I have also gone on vacations for a week or more every year, sometimes twice a year and my tank sitter came over every 2 or 3 days. I never lost or had a sick fish so I "assume" my fish are healthy. So Yes, I determine the health of fish by their apparent immunity, their spawning and longevity which means I feel that is the right way. At the start of the hobby I kept copper in my tank continuously and as far as I know the fishes livers were fine. I had a hippo tang for 10 years and probably for 3 years he was in copper. I am not an ichthyologist so maybe copper destroys the liver, I just don't know.

 

[bios]

The last question they are not immune you give them max opportunity to contrast any external attack

 

[Paul B]

I don't think I understand the question. Do you mean they are not immune because they have not been exposed to any disease organisms?

 

[bios]

No sure i only say that immunity means other.
Means that your fishes cant contract the pathology

 

[bios]

Liver have a rigenerative tissue as you know so if you dont demage it too much
Yes copper heavy metals and all pharmaceutics demage it
Copper particulary is dengerous
So hospital tank must be done by experts people and respecting low dosage

 

[bios]

Ah..
We are talking about liver
We have to talk about cns
That is central nervous systems
Have you see fish moving as a robots?
that is poisoning by heavy metals
Or other sure..

 

[Reef_Hobbyist]

Its no coincidence that our reef inhabitants instinctively prefer live foods while their human caretakers who love pizza and convenience try to figure out how to feed them otherwise.

 

[Paul B]

Bios, by the way, my family comes from Sciacca in Sicily :cool:

 

[bios]

Hi paul beatiful place sciacca have been there
I m from camerino here bud situation for heartquake 40 km from my house

 

[bios]

Best to talk about fish....

 

[sundog101]

Its no coincidence that our reef inhabitants instinctively prefer live foods while their human caretakers who love pizza and convenience try to figure out how to feed them otherwise.

I don't really get the term "captive diet". We know fish eat mostly live foods in the wild, and I feel like people are obsessed with pellets these days. They have their place, but we should include at least some foods that a fish would naturally eat. I guess what I'm sayings is why try to reinvent the wheel. Why not just feed your fish what they're designed to eat?
And many live foods are pretty easy to get and culture.

 

[bios]

That' s what paul says and i agree

 

[Paul B]

I just fed my fish worms and clams