Algae Scrubber Basics

Turbo's Aquatics · Dec 9, 2015

I still recommend 660nm primarily, and if you want to you can add some supplementary colors. I recommend running any other colors at 50% of less of the current of the DRs, either via separate driver or by taking a pair of the same LED and wiring them in parallel, then inserting them into the series string. I have found that SemiLED Hyper-violets with the wide lens (I think 90 degree) are good out of the box. There is also a 60 degree lens I believe which stick up like 3mm but you can slice it off with a razor blade if you have a steady hand and it results in a nice square output.

Turbo's Aquatics · Dec 23, 2015

Time for an update on my Mortar Screen. The quick answer: do it.

Day 0 - 12/8

Day 1 - 12/9

Day 2 - 12/10

At this point, I switched the timer from 24/7 operation to 1 hour on, 1 hour off, all day long.

Day 3 - 12/11

Day 4 - 12/12

Day 5 - 12/13

Day 7 - 12/15

Day 9 - 12/17

At this point, I flipped the timer back to 24/7 operation

Day 12 - 12/20

here's what it looked like in the box on 12/20

This one runs top-of-tank so I have a drain restrictor on the outlet to keep bubbles out of the tank, so the box fills up as the screen fills in. Basically the drain is under-balanced so this is what happens, but it works, I just have to keep an eye on it and dial back the flow usually by day 6 or 7, but since this was a brand new screen, it took a bit longer.

It's now day 15 and I don't want to take the screen out and take a pic, I will give it a first cleaning tonight.

The net result here is 15 days to a full green screen, and it's firmly attached because when I pulled out the screen on 12/20, the algae that was in the box (on the false bottom) pulled off, but it didn't detach from the screen itself. After I place the screen back in and fired up the water, there was no algae that broke free and flowed into the tank.

Huge success

ttabbal · Dec 23, 2015

I'm considering trying an ATS. I have what seems like an easy way to set it up. A glass pane in the sump between the fuge and return. Water pours over it anyway. So I was thinking of making a mortar screen and using algae clips or similar to hang it on the glass. It would be lit from a single side, but could be large, probably about a square foot. I'm thinking of using one of the ebay 660nm LED floodlights (20W?) on a timer for lighting.

Feed rate is about 1 cube a day. 55 gallon display, sump build from another 55, probably about 85 gallons of water total.

Turbo's Aquatics · Dec 25, 2015

Put a very slight angle on it. This helps prevent the water from passing over the top of the algae mat.

SantaMonica · Jan 2, 2016

3D printed screens have arrived, for 2016

Windy · Jan 3, 2016

Ten days. Front

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Back

ttabbal · Jan 3, 2016

Regarding 3D printed screens, is the idea to have them be less labor intensive to build? The craft store stuff is so cheap, it can't be about material cost...

fab · Feb 22, 2016

How soon after drying does Qwikreet Mortar Mix become fish and reef safe?

Portland cement can take weeks to cure adequately to stop leeching into saltwater, during which time it does affect PH. I don't know what is leeching and whether it is a problem for fish and reef critters.

Turbo's Aquatics · Feb 22, 2016

It depends much on thickness. When you're talking about DIY rock, which we did as a local club event, I totally agree that you want to soak that for weeks (3 or 4) to completely leech everything out. But this is quite different, the layer of mortar is only microns thick and is just a top-coat, so after maybe a week of soaking in stagnant water, you're good to go. It's even less if you put it in a big tub with water motion like this

Also here are some pics of the canvas screen taken with my phone and with this cheapie kids' toy digital microscope

Plain screen

100x (brightness/contrast adjusted because the toy sucks)

Roughed up (with a wire brush drill bit and then a quick pass with a saw blade)

100x

Mortar applied (fresh)

100x after 2-3 day curing, patted dry

200x

You can see how the shredded canvas material is poking out all over the place, which gives you an indication of how thin the mortar later actually is. It's sacrificial anyways so you don't really need it to be thick, really you don't want/need it to be. Thanks again @Paul B for nailing this one on the head. The microscopically rough texture is the perfect medium for fast initial algae growth. The roughed-up plastic canvas screen takes over in the long term after the mortar releases. I've found that the mortar releases during cleaning, about 1/2 of it comes off the first time you clean (usually the part that you contact with the scraper) and then about another 1/4 with the next cleaning (for about 3/4 total loss) and after that, just a little at a time. I think I'm coming up on the 4th cleaning on mine and I'm going to take lots of pics and use that handy cheapo 'scope again and see exactly how much is left and in what density.

And for fun, a #4-40 threadcutting machine screw

And my fingerprint

gettaReef · Feb 22, 2016

Pretty cool toy you got there!

SantaMonica · Feb 24, 2016

Just saw this...

Regarding 3D printed screens, is the idea to have them be less labor intensive to build? The craft store stuff is so cheap, it can't be about material cost...

The idea with 3D printing is to have as much permanent rough surface as possible, filling in the gaps with more threads. And since there is no mortar, there is nothing to fall off (making the screen less rough), and nothing which might get ingested when fish eat the algae.

Turbo's Aquatics · Feb 24, 2016

Properly roughed up canvas that is beneath a mortar layer is plenty rough on it's own accord, and that has been the staple of the waterfall scrubber for years. I don't see that being any different after a sacrificial layer of mortar is applied and then falls off.

Anyone who has ever made a mortar screen (prepared and cured correctly) will tell you that the mortar does not just "flake off" into your tank under flow, and just about the only way that mortar could get pulled off the screen by a fish is if the screen was hanging into the tank, or into a fuge section with fish in it with no protective barrier between the screen and the fish.

So first you tell everyone that the mainstay of scrubbers is "too slick" after you introduce your quartz surfaces. The truth of the matter is that plastic canvas doesn't work well in a submerged situation and your solution works better in that situation, but that doesn't mean canvas is the wrong material for a waterfall scrubber.

Now you are telling everyone, after the introduction of your 3D printed screens, that mortar screens are less effective once the mortar is gone and potentially dangerous to the tank inhabitants. The former I completely disagree with based on what I stated above. The latter would seem to indicate that we should not be using any sand in our tanks because that might get ingested and cause problems.

So I'll ask the million dollar question that so far no one has asked: What exact 3D printing material are you using, and have you performed any long-term toxin leeching tests to determine reef safe compatibility?

Turbo's Aquatics · Feb 24, 2016

I want to add that this is a 100% legitimate question. I don't have direct personal knowledge of leech testing 3D printed materials (i.e. didn't actually perform tests myself) but I do know a highly experienced and trusted individual who has.

If everything is good, I'm good. It's just a very important question that does deserve an answer.

cope413 · Mar 7, 2016

There's a thread about 3D printed reef plastics on here. ABS or PLA are both reef safe. There are other options as well.
Most filaments have msds available to check.

I've had a 3D printed overflow box in my tank for about 3 years now.

Turbo's Aquatics · Mar 7, 2016

I've been told explicitly no, PLA is not reef safe

Turbo's Aquatics · Mar 7, 2016

Here's some snippets of my conversation with my guy:

Me: "someone posted that there is a thread on R2R saying that ABS and PLA are both safe. I'm curious, what chemicals did you test for?"

Him: "A lot; I don't want to give away all of my insider information as I spent a ton to test and a lot of time, and the industry is no where near caught up to what I believe I know. I can tell you this affirmative, PLA Is not safe"

Me: "So is it one of those things like vinyl hose where technically it's not reef safe but people still use it and most don't have problems? Or at least, none they can easily pinpoint because it's so subtle. I'm guessing some materials are worse than others"

Him: "I can almost guarantee you will notice the problems after six months. But yes, people put deer skulls and things in tanks, and that's a no no too. I guess it's whether you care or not"

Me: "Even with regular water changes and carbon filtration, etc?"

Him: "Two guys on [local group] had complete kill offs from whatever the guy sold at the last swap. My best guess was PLA. Cheap guppies didn't make it in any of my tests past 5 months. With by weekly 20% change."

* emphasis added. The items sold were 3D printed frag plugs and frag racks.

What I can tell you is that "any of my tests" was all inclusive of all 3D printed materials except for one specific material and even then only one specific color, and I have been asked not to reveal what that material is, he's a friend so I have to respect that. But honestly, it's totally killing me on the scruples factor because I'm not the kind of person to hang on to information that I consider critical knowledge. Even if it is a competitor, I would prefer to tell them that the material they are using is not reef safe (even if it's only remotely) rather than sit back and eat popcorn because if it means that even one person avoids tank problems because of this, then I've done that person a service without them even knowing.

I think my friend's point is valid, so if anyone has any long term testing that contradict his findings, I'm sure he would be interested to know about it. I did a cursory search and couldn't find much.

cope413 said:
I've had a 3D printed overflow box in my tank for about 3 years now.

I'm sure you're not the only one that has not had problems, and since I haven't been able to find an outpouring of threads saying that all their stuff died because of the 3D printed material they put in their tank, this tells me that if there are issues, they are probably very subtle. So I'm not clanging the alarm bell and saying don't use any 3D printed material in a reef tank. I'm just saying that it appears to me to be a risk potential that hasn't really been fully evaluated

SantaMonica · Mar 7, 2016

ABS or PLA are both reef safe

You probably don't want to use PLA... it will slowly dissolve because it's just corn starch.

cope413 · Mar 7, 2016

Floyd R Turbo said:
Here's some snippets of my conversation with my guy:

Me: "someone posted that there is a thread on R2R saying that ABS and PLA are both safe. I'm curious, what chemicals did you test for?"

Him: "A lot; I don't want to give away all of my insider information as I spent a ton to test and a lot of time, and the industry is no where near caught up to what I believe I know. I can tell you this affirmative, PLA Is not safe"

Me: "So is it one of those things like vinyl hose where technically it's not reef safe but people still use it and most don't have problems? Or at least, none they can easily pinpoint because it's so subtle. I'm guessing some materials are worse than others"

Him: "I can almost guarantee you will notice the problems after six months. But yes, people put deer skulls and things in tanks, and that's a no no too. I guess it's whether you care or not"

Me: "Even with regular water changes and carbon filtration, etc?"

Him: "Two guys on [local group] had complete kill offs from whatever the guy sold at the last swap. My best guess was PLA. Cheap guppies didn't make it in any of my tests past 5 months. With by weekly 20% change."

* emphasis added. The items sold were 3D printed frag plugs and frag racks.

What I can tell you is that "any of my tests" was all inclusive of all 3D printed materials except for one specific material and even then only one specific color, and I have been asked not to reveal what that material is, he's a friend so I have to respect that. But honestly, it's totally killing me on the scruples factor because I'm not the kind of person to hang on to information that I consider critical knowledge. Even if it is a competitor, I would prefer to tell them that the material they are using is not reef safe (even if it's only remotely) rather than sit back and eat popcorn because if it means that even one person avoids tank problems because of this, then I've done that person a service without them even knowing.

I think my friend's point is valid, so if anyone has any long term testing that contradict his findings, I'm sure he would be interested to know about it. I did a cursory search and couldn't find much.

I'm sure you're not the only one that has not had problems, and since I haven't been able to find an outpouring of threads saying that all their stuff died because of the 3D printed material they put in their tank, this tells me that if there are issues, they are probably very subtle. So I'm not clanging the alarm bell and saying don't use any 3D printed material in a reef tank. I'm just saying that it appears to me to be a risk potential that hasn't really been fully evaluated

Wow, guy, ease up on the snark.

Here's the thread I started 18+months ago.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef-safe-plastics.175329/

You'll notice Randy's comments on various materials.

PLA could degrade - as Randy notes - but I expect it to not happen for a LONG time, and it, like Randy notes, would amount to carbon dosing

"Not a concern. The monomers released from PLA would be nontoxic and might have a similar effect to biopellets, although the degradation rate will be very dependent on molecular weight and crystallinity.:)
FWIW, I have used it to design implants to release drugs in people. "

If you're looking for detailed, in depth studies of these filaments in aquaria, then you'll likely be waiting for a long time.

FWIW, I was the one who printed some of Santa Monica's prototypes a couple years back. They were in ABS, and I don't recall hearing or seeing any issues with any of his ATS units.

There's tons of evidence about the safety of certain plastics. No idea who your friend is who provided you that "information", but given what I know from my 3+ years in the 3D printing industry - as well as input/information from Randy - I would say he should either provide more information, or stop spreading unsubstantiated nonsense.

ttabbal · Mar 7, 2016

Keep in mind that when you buy filament you may not have any way to be certain of the chemical composition of the plastic. There have been some issues with cheap filament clogging nozzles and such. The theory is that it contains fillers to lower the price.

I would be willing to put natural ABS in my tank. Most things I would print I would soak in RODI for a while to attempt to leach out anything possibly harmful. I would also use a known good filament from a good manufacturer. For example, Taulman FDA approved Nylon is probably about as safe as it gets.

You also have to consider the colorant.... One reason I mentioned natural ABS.

cope413 · Mar 7, 2016

While I'm sure there are some fly by night manufacturers out there, the vast majority of filaments come from 4-5 main producers.

There may be some pigments that could have issues for tanks, but white, for example, is mainly titanium dioxide, and shouldn't pose any threat. Also, the amount of pigment used is very small - many are 20, 30, even 50:1 - ratios of virgin resin vs colorant.

Natural filament takes some risk out, but I would bet that most pigments are totally acceptable.

Nylon, taulmans or otherwise, is great, and as Randy noted, probably the best bet