Am I overfeeding?

[Maxx Yung]

Have you performed a test on the RO water itself? Don't "assume".

My phosphates shot sky high to 2 over time and I couldn't figure out the reason. After several different attempts to identify the source, I decided to test my RO water... It read 0.2 straight from the source. Almost a year's accumulation of ATO brought it that high. I ran GFO and brought it down again.

Alright, time to test my RODI bin today!
As a side note, what Phosphate test kit do you use? Currently using Salifert, but once I fix this phosphate issue I might go with the Hanna checker.

 

[Maxx Yung]

Just my 2 cents, but maybe you should try feeding more broadly but less? So let the cube melt in a pee cup of water then pour 1/3 into a corner of the tank, your pigs will go there and eat. While they’re distracted feed another 1/3 on the other side of the tank so the other fish get some food, then the last 1/3 aim at anybody who looks left out. This is what I have to do cause my blenny beats my clowns but my clowns beat my cherub angel. I cut feeding in half and I can actually see full bellies on everyone now using this method, really helped with my algae problem. Maybe it can help you too

Hey, I already do exactly what you described! I put 3 cubes of food, then feed 1/5 on left, 1/5 on right... and continue when the fish finished. However, the fish consumes their food in 30 seconds, so I don't know if I am actually overfeeding.

 

[JustAnotherNanoTank]

I just changed my RODI filter 1 week ago... but before that it was about 8 months~ with 25 gallons a week made. Problem is, when I feed the 2 cubes, only 2 of my fish take it because they are pigs and refuse to share.

Wait so you don’t thaw it out? Thaw it out so it blows everywhere in the tank and other fish can get it.

 

[Maxx Yung]

I haven't had any phosphate issues and I feed Reef Roids. I don't think it's coming from that and if it was it should effect your nitrates as well. Again like some one suggested have you actually tested your RODI water? I would do an ICP analysis which has two sample tubes; one for tank and, one for RO water. It will also give you a bigger more exact picture of what's going on in your tank in case you've missed something. Phosphates can also leach out of dry rock too.

And I would still be cautious about adding Nitrates to your water. Just because you read something in a forum dont just go following it. I would do more research. Back in the day everyone ran zero nitrates. That's what everyone thought was the best for your reef. It's only untill recently that it was discovered that running nitrates around 5ppm could be beneficial to corals. My water tests zero nitrates and I'm not having any issues with my coral growth or coloration. I'm not telling you not to dose nitrates but just cautioning you to be certain that is the issue before you start dosing it. And I am still sketched out by sodium nitrate powder. I would be much more comfortable with a natural product like NeoNitro. It could be a whole number of things that could cause growth and coloration issues. Just out of curiosity what kind of light do you have? You said you run a skimmer try only running it for 12 hours a day.

Will do testing on my RODI bin, if I can't figure out why, ICP it is.

I started with live rock, so I don't think Phosphate can leech out of there.

I'll also do more research into sodium nitrate and NeoNitro. On the forum, Randy suggested sodium/potassium nitrate, and he does have a high reputation IMO.

I have 3 Radions Gen 4 XR30s. I've ran it on the same setting for 2 years and it was fine, so I don't think it is because of the light.

Finally, I will try running the skimmer 12 hours a day. However, my question is why does it work? I thought phosphate is removed when the skimmer is running...

 

[Maxx Yung]

Wait so you don’t thaw it out? Thaw it out so it blows everywhere in the tank and other fish can get it.

Yeah, I changed my method of feeding already.

Hey, I already do exactly what you described! I put 3 cubes of food, then feed 1/5 on left, 1/5 on right... and continue when the fish finished. However, the fish consumes their food in 30 seconds, so I don't know if I am actually overfeeding.

 

[footgal]

Yeah, I changed my method of feeding already.

If you’re feeding the way I described and the food is thawed, and the fish consume more than 95% of it within 30 seconds then IMO, overfeeding is not your issue. I’d definitely try an ICP test to see if something in your tank is leaching or if your water is bad somehow. Good luck with figuring it out!

 

[Maxx Yung]

To whoever recommended the RODI phosphate test, I just did it.
Salifert reads either 0 or 0.03... if you know the Salifert kit, you know how those colors are basically the same.
Not sure if 0.03 would build up to 0.5 through weekly 10% WCs.

 

[Luckyduck]

Alright, time to test my RODI bin today!
As a side note, what Phosphate test kit do you use? Currently using Salifert, but once I fix this phosphate issue I might go with the Hanna checker.

I use the Hanna Checker as well. Love it. Get the HI-713

 

[Luckyduck]

Will do testing on my RODI bin, if I can't figure out why, ICP it is.

I started with live rock, so I don't think Phosphate can leech out of there.

I'll also do more research into sodium nitrate and NeoNitro. On the forum, Randy suggested sodium/potassium nitrate, and he does have a high reputation IMO.

I have 3 Radions Gen 4 XR30s. I've ran it on the same setting for 2 years and it was fine, so I don't think it is because of the light.

Finally, I will try running the skimmer 12 hours a day. However, my question is why does it work? I thought phosphate is removed when the skimmer is running...

I agree. Randy knows his stuff so I would trust what he says. I just prefer natural products over powdered chemicals. Brightwell uses purified water and a scientific lab to make their additives. But I am also loyal to Brightwell so that's why I always turn to them. There's other ways to get your nitrates up before dosing it. I would think personally that would be a last resort. You can feed heavier or like I said turn off your skimmer for half the day. Skimming does help remove phosphates but not as much as it helps remove nitrates. Leaving it off for 12 hours should help to elevate your nitrates without having to add them.

 

[Maxx Yung]

I agree. Randy knows his stuff so I would trust what he says. I just prefer natural products over powdered chemicals. Brightwell uses purified water and a scientific lab to make their additives. But I am also loyal to Brightwell so that's why I always turn to them. There's other ways to get your nitrates up before dosing it. I would think personally that would be a last resort. You can feed heavier or like I said turn off your skimmer for half the day. Skimming does help remove phosphates but not as much as it helps remove nitrates. Leaving it off for 12 hours should help to elevate your nitrates without having to add them.

Thanks for the explanation for the skimmer! Will do that. Regarding feeding heavier - this forum is titled 'Am I Overfeeding'.

 

[Luckyduck]

Thanks for the explanation for the skimmer! Will do that. Regarding feeding heavier - this forum is titled 'Am I Overfeeding'.

Lol true. Try the skimmer off for a week and see where it gets you.

 

[edreefer]

Alright, time to test my RODI bin today!
As a side note, what Phosphate test kit do you use? Currently using Salifert, but once I fix this phosphate issue I might go with the Hanna checker.

I use the Hanna Checker.

 

[BC1906]

Just out of curiosity but do you have any corals? Are you having any algae issues (doubt it with the tangs)? I mean your po4 is high but I'd be more concerned about this if you had corals in your tank. I just didn't see any mention of corals so I'm not sure why you are concerned about low nitrates and dosing for that and high phosphates. I agree you should lower the phosphates if they were at 1 but why dose nitrate? It seems you're chasing numbers when you really don't need to. If you do have corals I take this all back lol.

 

[Maxx Yung]

Just out of curiosity but do you have any corals? Are you having any algae issues (doubt it with the tangs)? I mean your po4 is high but I'd be more concerned about this if you had corals in your tank. I just didn't see any mention of corals so I'm not sure why you are concerned about low nitrates and dosing for that and high phosphates. I agree you should lower the phosphates if they were at 1 but why dose nitrate? It seems you're chasing numbers when you really don't need to. If you do have corals I take this all back lol.

Yeah, I have lots of LPS and several SPS.
I only have film algae, and a little cyano on the sand, that's all.

 

[Maxx Yung]

Well, I am going to start looking into better ways to reduce phosphates.
PhosGuard doesn't work as well as I expected it to be, so I am looking at alternatives...

Saw a thread about Lanthanum Chloride, and it seems extremely promising. It's very potent and can be adjusted to your needs. If anyone is doing Lanthanum Chloride, please reply with a product link - I'm worried that I'll buy a non-reef safe option. SeaKlear seems to be the general consensus.

Also trying to find 1 or 5 Micron Filter Socks for Lanthanum Chloride; plenty of Tangs I am worried about

 

[Luckyduck]

Just out of curiosity but do you have any corals? Are you having any algae issues (doubt it with the tangs)? I mean your po4 is high but I'd be more concerned about this if you had corals in your tank. I just didn't see any mention of corals so I'm not sure why you are concerned about low nitrates and dosing for that and high phosphates. I agree you should lower the phosphates if they were at 1 but why dose nitrate? It seems you're chasing numbers when you really don't need to. If you do have corals I take this all back lol.

Exactly my point! He seems to be chasing number because he read it somewhere. No reason to if you don't have a need. And I've given several products that have worked extremely well for me but he keeps asking about other things. I'm done sharing my advise.

 

[Luckyduck]

Well, I am going to start looking into better ways to reduce phosphates.
PhosGuard doesn't work as well as I expected it to be, so I am looking at alternatives...

Saw a thread about Lanthanum Chloride, and it seems extremely promising. It's very potent and can be adjusted to your needs. If anyone is doing Lanthanum Chloride, please reply with a product link - I'm worried that I'll buy a non-reef safe option. SeaKlear seems to be the general consensus.

Also trying to find 1 or 5 Micron Filter Socks for Lanthanum Chloride; plenty of Tangs I am worried about

Why are you looking to use all these crazy chemicals? I told you Phosphat-E is extremely effective at removing phosphates and Phosphates only. It's completely safe for your reef too. Why mess around with something that can cause a major problem?

 

[LesPoissons]

This is an interesting thread.
1. get the Hanna checker. It’s much better than salifert.
2. I understand the phos is high but is it actually causing any issues within the tank? Just curious bc I don’t remember you mentioning anything being a problem other than the number? Another option- if you are not having algae out breaks, your corals are happy, the fish are happy- you could stop worrying about the number (that is 90% likely inaccurate anyway) and just let things be? My opinion is that phos is not well understood and one of the first things we jump in to try to change with chemicals and cleanings and reducing foods etc. and make our tanks angry with a million changes.

It sounds to me like you aren’t over feeding, and the cleaning schedule is set up well etc. I wouldn’t make all these changes without having a (more) accurate test kit and maybe an icp test. ($50 for each. The icp test gives you detailed specifics about everything in your water and suggestions on how to correct them).

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Nitrate is the end product of aerobic remineralization. Phosphate and ammonia are waste products of remineralization and produced by dissimilation, the production of the energy needed to break down the organics to become useful and to be used to grow and multiply. Most carbon is released as CO2, closing the carbon cycle. If all this takes place in a biofilm, one has a nitrifying biofilm, which may export +- 15% of the nitrogen processed by the biofilm as N2, this way closing the nitrogen cycle. To have control and be able to manage the nitrogen content we use a biofilter.

Bacteria and algae, most micro life, prefer ammonium-nitrogen as a nitrogen source as when using nitrate a lot more energy is needed and growth is limited. The use of nitrate-nitrogen slows down growth rates.

An aquarium with a lot of fish has a high remineralization rate producing DOC ( dissolved organic compounds) for maintaining heterotrophic growth needed for remineralization. +- 85% of digested food will be released, most nitrogen directly as ammonia and some urea. DOC is then used ( bacteria only can use DOC as a carbon source) and be broken down into its basic building materials which can be reused for growth.
To create a balance the protein content and C/N ratio of the food added is important as it will be determent for the heterotrophic/ autotrophic ammonium reduction ratio, determent for the carrying capacity of the system. It is also important the food is from marine origin otherwise a lot of detritus may be left over after remineralization. Algae may contain a lot of carbon, influencing the C/N ratio when consumed.
A very good skimmer does remove very little protein, it removes mainly DOC but very selective which results in a max removal ratio of +-30%. A skimmer leafs all free inorganic nitrogen and phosphate behind ( ref:CMFDeHaes2018)
Already a lot of energy has been produced to reduce TOC into DOC, all DOC removed by a skimmer is a waste of not only energy but also of the produced inorganic nutrients which stay behind.

How come little nitrate is measured and a lot of phosphates are present? Is nitrate not present because the nitrifiers are outcompeted for ammonium due to a too high C/N ratio? A lot of products for battling nutrients, algae, and cyano may contain a lot of organic carbon, even carbohydrates. Sometimes one is increasing the C/N ratio too high without knowing.

In a reef aquarium with a lot of calcium carbonate rock ( Aragonite) a lot of phosphates may be produced due to disolving rock or sand, nitrification taking place on the aragonite substrate produces acids, or in a CO2 calcium reactor. Calcium and phosphate may produce calciumphosphate as may be seen when using kalkwasser. Phosphate is used for calcification, for making rock. Is the production and removal rate out of balance?

Using high protein food will lower the C/N ratio, increasing nitrification.
Feeding algae may increase the C/N ratio. If a lot of algae eaters are present, less nitrate may be produced.

Please do not add nitrate. Why one should add nitrate?

Nutrient levels are in most cases the messengers, not the cause of problems, exempt when not available. Increasing levels are the indication of underlying problems. Battling them without correcting the underlying cause will not solve a thing. What is measured is what is left over, which is not used at the moment of measuring. In the microworld, the demand can be doubled in a moment as growth is logarithmic.

The presence of phosphate increases calcification rates if enough CO3 is present.( ref:CMF De Haes En Co 2007- 2020)

A low nitrogen level limits the risk for phosphorus starvation during periods of increased growth. It has been shown phosphorus starvation is the main cause of coral bleaching during periods of increased growth ( increased temp) supported by nitrogen availability, also in aquaria. Therefore, to prevent the nutrient reserve may become responsible for phosphorus starvation, phosphate is best not the growth limiting factor and we keep the nitrate level at max 9X the phosphate level present. It has also been shown insufficient phosphorus supply may harm, even kill corals after a short period of time, insufficient nitrogen availability will harm corals after a much longer period of starvation. that is why we prefer the nitrogen reserve to be the growth-limiting factor. The coral holobiont.(ref:Anthias2019)

Battling or killing the messengers will not win wars and not solve a thing. In a lot of cases, the method used for battling nutrient levels may cause a lot more problems as an increased nutrient level ever will.

The best way for managing the nutrient content is by using a biofilter, a refuge for culturing your own food, algae or plankton, even shrimp. This way nutrients can be removed as desired by feeding for the target nutrient(s) modified F2 media. For example for removing phosphate, for phosphorus corrected F2 media is used to feed the culture. The culture will be harvested and be used as a food source. (ref:CMF De Haes En Co 2017-2020) The use of bioflocs?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Why are you looking to use all these crazy chemicals? I told you Phosphat-E is extremely effective at removing phosphates and Phosphates only. It's completely safe for your reef too. Why mess around with something that can cause a major problem?

What if extremely effective Phosphate E is overdosed? Completely safe? how to use: Add weekly at same dosage to maintain an immeasurable reactive phosphate concentration. Safe? one does not even consider to dose based on a known parameter.
What does such a product wich agressively binds phosphate may do to the coral holobiont if overdosed?


There is a much safer way to control nutrients, any nutrient.