Are we ruining the hobby???

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Really? I have not seen many posts for that, now sure where I would look though. Maybe in the want to buy section I guess.

this is the most recent kitchen I built. The doors are touch to open and go up to the ceiling, push a button and they come Back down

I’ll have to check that out.

I’d like to contribute to this thread - I’m already exhausted of hearing alllllll these coral names. That look awful but have thousands of dollars inside of them... zero color design. Just splats of random color. I would love to see some simple tanks!

What wood is that, beautiful, comrade

 

[Brian1f1]

I guess I’m one of the few that’s been around for awhile (2002) and mostly like the changes we’ve seen.

I used to run PCs and two 400 watt halides in a canopy, and that thing was cooking. I had to run the house AC higher to compensate. No
ATO so I had to lug between 5 to 7 gallons of water up from the basement daily once the sump got low and started blowing bubbles. Love my LEDs, my ATO, and my DC WiFi controlled main pump. I don’t need any of them, no one made me buy them, but they are pretty great, and I could, so I did. I’d like a controller, sure, but I don’t find it too necessary just yet.

As far as the smallish, sometimes named, frags being depressing, well, I think we’ve literally defined “first world problems” with that line, it’s honestly very very low on my list of tragedies befalling the earth (dramatic, maybe, accurate, very much so).

Actually, now we have almost endless types of insanely colored corals to pick from, many of which would have been all but impossible to easily find in the past, and very often much more difficult/dicey to acclimate if you did get lucky and find them. Some are expensive, yes, but not all of them, you can pick which to buy and which not to buy after all. I love the variety I can pick from, and I love watching them grow and trading them. It’s fun to get some hot ones once in a while too and to try to grow them out, sue me ‍♂

The Indo ban used to annoy me, but now I’m glad it happened. With climate change, carbonic acid, erosion (from forest destruction and farming), run off, over fishing, dredging, plastic pollution, sewer drainage, and the loss of vast reefs and with total loss projected as a real possibility in the not so short term (in the stunningly, insanely, astoundingly rapid term, geologically speaking) and so on and so forth, the corals could use a break. It’s a small, perhaps even a token gesture, I know, but when you’re on your knees getting the life relentlessly pounded out of you, any little bit helps. So, I’ll take my Illuminatis and my rastas and my daisy dukes, and raise a glass, revel in their glory, and the fact that they were born and bred in captivity, and salute the frags and the tech that makes them look cool and easier to keep.

 

[NanoDJS]

This is why you ROCK !!! I can identify with so much you so eloquently said. I am an old school reefer for life ! Your passion and devotion over there @ PEA are part of what makes this hobby so awesome for myself and so many other reefers. I love that you are so fair and offer things people would never see (shops included ) . It does make things easier to keep track of ,but the price jump name game is getting waaaay outa control I agree. Nothing beats grown out colonies IMHO, I am one of the few that never cut /fragged or sold my "bounce" to make a quick buck, just a BIG colony . In fact I have some magic aliens coming in Wed from you guys , your top notch ! Your not ruining my hobby , you help make it Reeftastic !

 

[MikeyLikesit]

I would create a post for custom wood work like they have a 3d printing forum. A lot of reefers are looking for side cabinets for all there electronics or computer stuff or like humble said. Stands. Or maybe little something else.

Never know

hey thanks. I’m currently making my own stand

What wood is that, beautiful, comrade

hey, thanks!
It is quarter sawn Brazilian Teak. It is a veneer that I vaccuum-pressed onto Medex MDF (moisture resistant). Then it was edgebanded and finished.

 

[MrWheelock]

hey thanks. I’m currently making my own stand



hey, thanks!
It is quarter sawn Brazilian Teak. It is a veneer that I vaccuum-pressed onto Medex MDF (moisture resistant). Then it was edgebanded and finished.

PM sent. The company that made my stand wouldnt qoute me for a taller canopy, said I needed to contact the dealer.... nah no thanks on the markup. Id also like a matching controller cabinet

 

[Sump Crab]

I have been in the hobby since 2005 and reefing these days is so much better than it ever was then. Other than not being able to have fresh LR shipped in from overseas I cannot think of anything that was better back then. As much as "named" corals cost there are so many varieties of inexpensive, colorful corals to chose from. One can easily make a beautiful reef tank today using "nameless" corals. I am one who tends to believe that the hobby is doing fairly well right now. Just don't get sucked into the hype and keep your tank reasonable.

Yes there are a lot of complaints on this forum everyday about coral being too expensive and reefing being too hard but I believe that's due to fly by nighters with loud voices. If they cant handle the hobby today they would have HATED it in 2005.

 

[totalbiz]

Very interesting read. It is a little crazy. The other thing that alwasy gets me is the "correct" way to keep a particular fish. Someone decided that 75 gallons is the correct size for a tang. 125 gallons for an angelfish. If anyone has kept any fish though, they know this is nuts. I have kept fish for a long time, and have had happy, long lived fish in tanks that are not in the "correct" range. I've seen this also scare off new hobbyists. Just be rational, and take care of your fish.

 

[Braves Fan]

I feel all named coral frags are not created equal ,, if a coral company imports a SPS colony or any of the other types of corals that can be fraged and sold,, names it ,, frags it ,, puts the frags up on their site for sale ,, sells them ,,, then the imported colony is gone ,,, the name given to the colony is a waste of time ,, they could have just said a red acro ,, a green acan a blue zoa and been done with it ,, but if your a company that is going to grow this coral out ,, sell frags for the foreseeable future ,, keep it as a parent colony to harvest frags from ,, the coral is going to considered by the company as a signature coral if you will ,, then naming this coral is a good thing ,, we as customers know what we are getting when we buy this coral ,, I would say ,, most if not all of these signature type corals are not just your run of the mill corals ,, they are corals that have better than average color ,,

When it comes to pricing ,, I don't give the cost of a frag a second thought ,, the prices on " all " of these high priced corals will come down at some point ,, the way I see it ,, there is no way around this ,, I am only using this coral and vendor to make my point ,, Raja Rampage Chalice and J. Fox corals ,, if you go to his site ,, he sells frags of this coral on his site for $150 to $200 a frag ,, more or less ,, when this coral was introduced to the hobby and you wanted a frag ,, you had to go to J. Fox to get it ,, he set the price,, it was the must have chalice ,, its a looker ,, who doesn't want it I know I wanted it ,, I am sure J. Fox made a ton of money on this coral ,, he should have ,, I don't begrudge him on this ,, as other coral vendors and reefers bought their frags and grew them out and sold them ,, the price of this coral has dropped ,, even though J. Fox still has his frgas priced at whatever price he ask for them ,, this coral can be had for about half his asking price from other sources ,,

My point is ,, every time a coral company sells a frag of one of their signature ,, high $$ coral frags ,, they are moving towards the asking price on this coral to drop as other vendors and reefers grow them out to a point where they can frag them ,, like the Raja Rampage Chalice has shown ,, looking at the big picture ,,, this really is a big deal ,, with the Indo ban ,, not as many new corals are entering into the market ,, who know where the hobby is going down the road ,, will there be other coral bans that come into play ,, I think the day is coming where the only corals that are going to be sold ,, are grown by companies that have invested in large grow out systems ,, and these companies I feel don't have a necessarily secure future ,, as more and more hobbyist grow these corals ,, we reefers in the hobby won't have to go to these companies to aquire our frags ,,

 

[MikeyLikesit]

I remember back in 2006, when I was a reader and “groupie” I would go to saltwater meet ups in Chicago and people would just swap frags for free. Haha.
i think so many people try to flex their stock online (Vanity) that the genuine joy and relationdoare gone.

 

[hotdrop]

Naming is super important now because the fancy light and easy photoshop make it impossible to tell what a coral will look like. I look at al the wwc picture and they look nothing like any coral or frag I’ve ever seen the colors are super bold and vivid, im pretty convinced that they are all doctored, or photography tricks. If I see the same frag name from other people here and it still looks good then there is a decent chance that it’s a nice frag those pictures are processed differently.

 

[jsvand5]

Really? I have not seen many posts for that, now sure where I would look though. Maybe in the want to buy section I guess.

this is the most recent kitchen I built. The doors are touch to open and go up to the ceiling, push a button and they come Back down

I’ll have to check that out.

I’d like to contribute to this thread - I’m already exhausted of hearing alllllll these coral names. That look awful but have thousands of dollars inside of them... zero color design. Just splats of random color. I would love to see some simple tanks!

Try checking with a LFS. They may let you put a stand and canopy on one of their tanks they have for sale. There is a store by me that has a local woodworker that builds all of their stands. People are definitely willing to pay more for nice solid wood stands than the MDF junk that most manufacturers use.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

My personal opinion is that for many folks the joy of simply keeping the animals alive and thriving is gone.

I see it all the time. A new customer comes in and sets up a reef tank. At first they are thrilled by Nemo and serpent Starfish and Nassarius snails and gently moving leather corals in the flow. Soon they grow bored with the basics and venture to the internet and then they come back in after a few months spouting out all kinds of designer coral names and are self proclaimed experts on reefkeeping. Within 6 to 12 months they have burned through enough livestock and money that they leave the hobby and perpetuate the old myth that saltwater aquariums and reefs in particular are impossible to keep. In the meantime the store owner is all to happy to accommodate the newbie, striking while the iron is hot. Ich, algae, and dead corals--the all too common lament of new hobbyists. The fun hobby turned into a chore that put a rift between husband and wife. All too common a scenario and all so easily avoidable.

While the designer names in and of themselves have not much to do with the above scenario, they do in my opinion lessen the value of the animal itself. No longer is the high priced designer named newest released frag just a coral. It's a status symbol, a potential money maker, an intsant sense of accomplishment, ahh yes--a pyramid scheme! As a hobbyist I don't hear as much joy in reefkeeping as much as I hear about collecting the designer coral and one ups manship. I must admit at giving out a chuckle whenever I see "new release" as though the coral was hatched in someone's basement or concocted out of a mix of chemicals on a lab bench. I started in the hobby when just the thought of keeping a coral in an aquarium was an exciting goal. I personally find the name game boring.

OK, so you think I'm just a stodgy curmudgeon. After 50 years in this hobby I still am enthralled by simple things. A serpent starfish crawling out of a crevice at feeding time, a Nassarius snail popping up from the sand, a beautiful group of mature leather corals swaying in the flow, a pair of Clownfish guarding their eggs, watching a goby hop around the rocks or a blenny scurrying to its hole in a rock. The mesmerizing actions of Xenia!


To each their own. Some folks chuckle at my simplistic thoughts, others sit back and find joy in their frag tank of sticks with big price tags. Live and let live my friends. Just one man's opinions.

 

[CMO]

My personal opinion is that for many folks the joy of simply keeping the animals alive and thriving is gone.

I see it all the time. A new customer comes in and sets up a reef tank. At first they are thrilled by Nemo and serpent Starfish and Nassarius snails and gently moving leather corals in the flow. Soon they grow bored with the basics and venture to the internet and then they come back in after a few months spouting out all kinds of designer coral names and are self proclaimed experts on reefkeeping. Within 6 to 12 months they have burned through enough livestock and money that they leave the hobby and perpetuate the old myth that saltwater aquariums and reefs in particular are impossible to keep. In the meantime the store owner is all to happy to accommodate the newbie, striking while the iron is hot. Ich, algae, and dead corals--the all too common lament of new hobbyists. The fun hobby turned into a chore that put a rift between husband and wife. All too common a scenario and all so easily avoidable.

While the designer names in and of themselves have not much to do with the above scenario, they do in my opinion lessen the value of the animal itself. No longer is the high priced designer named newest released frag just a coral. It's a status symbol, a potential money maker, an intsant sense of accomplishment, ahh yes--a pyramid scheme! As a hobbyist I don't hear as much joy in reefkeeping as much as I hear about collecting the designer coral and one ups manship. I must admit at giving out a chuckle whenever I see "new release" as though the coral was hatched in someone's basement or concocted out of a mix of chemicals on a lab bench. I started in the hobby when just the thought of keeping a coral in an aquarium was an exciting goal. I personally find the name game boring.

OK, so you think I'm just a stodgy curmudgeon. After 50 years in this hobby I still am enthralled by simple things. A serpent starfish crawling out of a crevice at feeding time, a Nassarius snail popping up from the sand, a beautiful group of mature leather corals swaying in the flow, a pair of Clownfish guarding their eggs, watching a goby hop around the rocks or a blenny scurrying to its hole in a rock. The mesmerizing actions of Xenia!


To each their own. Some folks chuckle at my simplistic thoughts, others sit back and find joy in their frag tank of sticks with big price tags. Live and let live my friends. Just one man's opinions.

Well said.

 

[hotdrop]

My personal opinion is that for many folks the joy of simply keeping the animals alive and thriving is gone.

I see it all the time. A new customer comes in and sets up a reef tank. At first they are thrilled by Nemo and serpent Starfish and Nassarius snails and gently moving leather corals in the flow. Soon they grow bored with the basics and venture to the internet and then they come back in after a few months spouting out all kinds of designer coral names and are self proclaimed experts on reefkeeping. Within 6 to 12 months they have burned through enough livestock and money that they leave the hobby and perpetuate the old myth that saltwater aquariums and reefs in particular are impossible to keep. In the meantime the store owner is all to happy to accommodate the newbie, striking while the iron is hot. Ich, algae, and dead corals--the all too common lament of new hobbyists. The fun hobby turned into a chore that put a rift between husband and wife. All too common a scenario and all so easily avoidable.

While the designer names in and of themselves have not much to do with the above scenario, they do in my opinion lessen the value of the animal itself. No longer is the high priced designer named newest released frag just a coral. It's a status symbol, a potential money maker, an intsant sense of accomplishment, ahh yes--a pyramid scheme! As a hobbyist I don't hear as much joy in reefkeeping as much as I hear about collecting the designer coral and one ups manship. I must admit at giving out a chuckle whenever I see "new release" as though the coral was hatched in someone's basement or concocted out of a mix of chemicals on a lab bench. I started in the hobby when just the thought of keeping a coral in an aquarium was an exciting goal. I personally find the name game boring.

OK, so you think I'm just a stodgy curmudgeon. After 50 years in this hobby I still am enthralled by simple things. A serpent starfish crawling out of a crevice at feeding time, a Nassarius snail popping up from the sand, a beautiful group of mature leather corals swaying in the flow, a pair of Clownfish guarding their eggs, watching a goby hop around the rocks or a blenny scurrying to its hole in a rock. The mesmerizing actions of Xenia!


To each their own. Some folks chuckle at my simplistic thoughts, others sit back and find joy in their frag tank of sticks with big price tags. Live and let live my friends. Just one man's opinions.

IMO the biggest threat to reef keeping is ****** vendors/distributors that spread diseases everywhere. From fish to corals everything is sick and needs to be treated before it even touches your tank.
So now instead of one tank, a newbie needs 2-3 and all the associated space and equipment to go along with it. All that **** keeps dieing and newbie keep having to buy more and more stuff

I don’t this it’s really fair to ask a new reef keeper to be able manage that. We really need better sources for clean fish and coral and people that are willing to call out the big distributors when they suddenly have a $5 frag sale send out a bunch of frags with brown jelly.

A lot of new upstart vendors are just chop shops, they buy colony’s cut them up and sell them for profit. It’s not a terrible model as long as they are providing value by doing good QT and sending out clean frags. Unfortunately the qt is often lacking and you get what you get.

A named frag (with history) provides value in that the frag is going to be aquacultured at the vendor, it is suitable and trives in aquariums, and because it’s more valuable hopefully the person growing it will care enough to keep it disease free after cutting it. Additionally the name gives the frag traceability so you can ask others how well it does for them. For example the WD frag seems to grow pretty well but a lot of people are struggling with the JF jolt. There is value in knowing that when tank space is at a premium.

 

[Humblefish]

My personal opinion is that for many folks the joy of simply keeping the animals alive and thriving is gone.

I see it all the time. A new customer comes in and sets up a reef tank. At first they are thrilled by Nemo and serpent Starfish and Nassarius snails and gently moving leather corals in the flow. Soon they grow bored with the basics and venture to the internet and then they come back in after a few months spouting out all kinds of designer coral names and are self proclaimed experts on reefkeeping. Within 6 to 12 months they have burned through enough livestock and money that they leave the hobby and perpetuate the old myth that saltwater aquariums and reefs in particular are impossible to keep. In the meantime the store owner is all to happy to accommodate the newbie, striking while the iron is hot. Ich, algae, and dead corals--the all too common lament of new hobbyists. The fun hobby turned into a chore that put a rift between husband and wife. All too common a scenario and all so easily avoidable.

While the designer names in and of themselves have not much to do with the above scenario, they do in my opinion lessen the value of the animal itself. No longer is the high priced designer named newest released frag just a coral. It's a status symbol, a potential money maker, an intsant sense of accomplishment, ahh yes--a pyramid scheme! As a hobbyist I don't hear as much joy in reefkeeping as much as I hear about collecting the designer coral and one ups manship. I must admit at giving out a chuckle whenever I see "new release" as though the coral was hatched in someone's basement or concocted out of a mix of chemicals on a lab bench. I started in the hobby when just the thought of keeping a coral in an aquarium was an exciting goal. I personally find the name game boring.

OK, so you think I'm just a stodgy curmudgeon. After 50 years in this hobby I still am enthralled by simple things. A serpent starfish crawling out of a crevice at feeding time, a Nassarius snail popping up from the sand, a beautiful group of mature leather corals swaying in the flow, a pair of Clownfish guarding their eggs, watching a goby hop around the rocks or a blenny scurrying to its hole in a rock. The mesmerizing actions of Xenia!


To each their own. Some folks chuckle at my simplistic thoughts, others sit back and find joy in their frag tank of sticks with big price tags. Live and let live my friends. Just one man's opinions.

A man after my own heart. Well said.

 

[CMO]

IMO the biggest threat to reef keeping is ****** vendors/distributors that spread diseases everywhere. From fish to corals everything is sick and needs to be treated before it even touches your tank.
So now instead of one tank, a newbie needs 2-3 and all the associated space and equipment to go along with it. All that **** keeps dieing and newbie keep having to buy more and more stuff

I don’t this it’s really fair to ask a new reef keeper to be able manage that. We really need better sources for clean fish and coral and people that are willing to call out the big distributors when they suddenly have a $5 frag sale send out a bunch of frags with brown jelly.

A lot of new upstart vendors are just chop shops, they buy colony’s cut them up and sell them for profit. It’s not a terrible model as long as they are providing value by doing good QT and sending out clean frags. Unfortunately the qt is often lacking and you get what you get.

A named frag (with history) provides value in that the frag is going to be aquacultured at the vendor, it is suitable and trives in aquariums, and because it’s more valuable hopefully the person growing it will care enough to keep it disease free after cutting it. Additionally the name gives the frag traceability so you can ask others how well it does for them. For example the WD frag seems to grow pretty well but a lot of people are struggling with the JF jolt. There is value in knowing that when tank space is at a premium.

Some good points here as well. Its is ridiculous that we need a minimum of 3 tanks (and 4+ if you QT inverts and coral) to enjoy this hobby and treat the fish well. Minimum being DT, fish QT for medication and fish QT for observation / pull from medicated DT if fish has issues with meds. There are literally tanks in every corner of my house to accomplish all of this... Its madness. lol.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Some good points here as well. Its is ridiculous that we need a minimum of 3 tanks (and 4+ if you QT inverts and coral) to enjoy this hobby and treat the fish well. Minimum being DT, fish QT for medication and fish QT for observation / pull from medicated DT if fish has issues with meds. There are literally tanks in every corner of my house to accomplish all of this... Its madness. lol.

The whole issue of livestock quality, specifically fish, is a separate issue than what I was addressing.

I've been in the hobby since 1965 and on the commercial side dealing with fish since 1968. Over a year ago I decided I was done with wild collected fish. Other than a couple hold overs from previous years in a display tank, I don't stock or sell any wild collected fish--None. I refuse to deal with the junk out there nowadays. I only stock and sell captive-bred tank-raised fish and am so happy! No diseases, no losses, no problems. More and more variety becoming available, definitely enough to make a beautiful display, and leave all the wild fish on the reef. So many wild collected fish die before getting to hobbyists and in hobbyist care that it is extremely sad to me. I guess I'm getting too sentimental in my old age.

 

[CMO]

yeah, sorry for the off topic post but I'm 100% with you on captive bred fish and it's very sad to me as well to see so many wild caught fish be tortured through the wholesale channels on the way to our tanks. Just had 12 happy and healthy captive bred fish delivered this morning.

Now, back to silly coral names...

 

[Magellan]

I remember buying some mini zoas, and the guy is like, “oh those are Nuclear dragon eyes, great choice!” I said “they are yellow, gonna look good in my zoa garden”. LOVE this thread, great post OP!

 

[Humblefish]

IMO the biggest threat to reef keeping is ****** vendors/distributors that spread diseases everywhere. From fish to corals everything is sick and needs to be treated before it even touches your tank.

To be blunt, most vendors/distributors figure that's your problem to solve. Being these animals are perishable, the objective is to move them down the supply chain as quickly as possible. Once the animal has been sold to the end consumer, everyone has made their $$$ and mission accomplished.