Bacterial Tufts/Viral Nodules?

[argcargv]

Hi Reefers,

I'm feeling rather preplexed.

I've completed 14 days of constant therapuetic Copper Power (2.5 ppm, verified using a Hanna Copper Checker) and transferred the batch of fish into an observation tank. It has been 16 days since I've performed the transfer and noticed as of yesterday the Blue Tang starting to twitch, scratch heavily, swim very erratically and upon taking a closer inspection noticed "tufts" or "nodules" all over its body and fins.

The Blue Tang is in a 180 litre QT system among with a couple other fish, among those is a Desjardini and a Purple Tang. I did witness on several occassions both the Desjardini and Purple Tang aggressively chasing, biting, whipping and attempting to bite the Blue Tang to a certain extent. I've since isolated the Blue Tang from the Desjardini and Purple Tang.

I honestly don't know what I'm dealing with here. I believe it to possibly be either a viral of bacterial infection of some kind, but I don't know whether I'd expect to see the scratching/twitching behavior if it were the case? Also, if you look at the pectoral fins in either of the photos, you can see cauliflower like "clumps" developing on the end. No other fish (Desjardini, Purple, Ocellaris Clowns, Sunburst Anthias) that is currently in the same QT system is exhibiting any other symptoms of the like.

I've started to include Seachem Kanaplex and Vitamins in frozen food as well as dosing these [0] Tri Sulfa Tablets (as this is what we're limited to in Australia and I'm waiting for more Kanaplex to arrive from the US). Is this the right course of action, or should I be doing something else?

[0] Blue Planet Tri Sulfa Medication Tablets

 

[N.Sreefer]

Hi Reefers,

I'm feeling rather preplexed.

I've completed 14 days of constant therapuetic Copper Power (2.5 ppm, verified using a Hanna Copper Checker) and transferred the batch of fish into an observation tank. It has been 16 days since I've performed the transfer and noticed as of yesterday the Blue Tang starting to twitch, scratch heavily, swim very erratically and upon taking a closer inspection noticed "tufts" or "nodules" all over its body and fins.

The Blue Tang is in a 180 litre QT system among with a couple other fish, among those is a Desjardini and a Purple Tang. I did witness on several occassions both the Desjardini and Purple Tang aggressively chasing, biting, whipping and attempting to bite the Blue Tang to a certain extent. I've since isolated the Blue Tang from the Desjardini and Purple Tang.

I honestly don't know what I'm dealing with here. I believe it to possibly be either a viral of bacterial infection of some kind, but I don't know whether I'd expect to see the scratching/twitching behavior if it were the case? Also, if you look at the pectoral fins in either of the photos, you can see cauliflower like "clumps" developing on the end. No other fish (Desjardini, Purple, Ocellaris Clowns, Sunburst Anthias) that is currently in the same QT system is exhibiting any other symptoms of the like.

I've started to include Seachem Kanaplex and Vitamins in frozen food as well as dosing these [0] Tri Sulfa Tablets (as this is what we're limited to in Australia and I'm waiting for more Kanaplex to arrive from the US). Is this the right course of action, or should I be doing something else?

[0] Blue Planet Tri Sulfa Medication Tablets

To me that looks like ich but I'm no expert, @Jay Hemdal is. @ReefSquad

 

[argcargv]

To me that looks like ich but I'm no expert, @Jay Hemdal is. @ReefSquad

I had initially thought that too, but on the contrary, a couple points that is clouding my confirmation on this being Ich:

• Nodules/Tufts as well as any behavioural changes became apparent overnight.
• Copper treatment was held at therapeutic levels consistently for 14 consecutive days. No equipment transferred, or anything other than fish transferred to observation system.
• 16 days post transfer to observation system. If anything, I would've expect something to show up after 7 days.
• No other fish in the QT system is expressing any indicators of Ich compromise.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I had initially thought that too, but on the contrary, a couple points that is clouding my confirmation on this being Ich:

• Nodules/Tufts as well as any behavioural changes became apparent overnight.
• Copper treatment was held at therapeutic levels consistently for 14 consecutive days. No equipment transferred, or anything other than fish transferred to observation system.
• 16 days post transfer to observation system. If anything, I would've expect something to show up after 7 days.
• No other fish in the QT system is expressing any indicators of Ich compromise.

You're correct, that isn't marine ich. We see this a lot with blue tangs, especially after a copper treatment. I've scraped this material and looked at it under a microscope and could only see mucus cells. It could be a viral disease, or possibly even bacterial, but I term it "idiopathic mucus plugs". It sometimes goes away on its own. I think in cases where the fish doesn't recover, the fish actually had some other issue at the same time.

Have you considered treating the fish for flukes?

Here is an article I wrote up on fish mucus: (read the PDF file on the righthand margin.

Mucus - The Slime That Binds

Mucus: The Slime that Binds Jay Hemdal C. 2020 This article examines the various causes of excess mucus coatings on fish, as well as fecal mucus issues. ------------------- The mucus produced by the fish’s epidermal cells gives them their...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[argcargv]

You're correct, that isn't marine ich. We see this a lot with blue tangs, especially after a copper treatment. I've scraped this material and looked at it under a microscope and could only see mucus cells. It could be a viral disease, or possibly even bacterial, but I term it "idiopathic mucus plugs". It sometimes goes away on its own. I think in cases where the fish doesn't recover, the fish actually had some other issue at the same time.

Have you considered treating the fish for flukes?

Here is an article I wrote up on fish mucus: (read the PDF file on the righthand margin.

Mucus - The Slime That Binds

Mucus: The Slime that Binds Jay Hemdal C. 2020 This article examines the various causes of excess mucus coatings on fish, as well as fecal mucus issues. ------------------- The mucus produced by the fish’s epidermal cells gives them their...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Hey Jay,

Thanks for getting back to me.

Hm, the thing that really confuses me though is the current behavior. The Blue Tang seems very irritated and exhibits all the symptoms as if though there was some external parasite present. I caught a short video of it aggresively scratching today and uploaded it accordingly:

• Blue Tang Scratching Aggresively

I've also performed to subsequent rounds of Praziquantel to eliminate the possibility of flukes, so I'm not overly convinced that it is flukes. Then again, you never really know.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hey Jay,

Thanks for getting back to me.

Hm, the thing that really confuses me though is the current behavior. The Blue Tang seems very irritated and exhibits all the symptoms as if though there was some external parasite present. I caught a short video of it aggresively scratching today and uploaded it accordingly:

• Blue Tang Scratching Aggresively

I've also performed to subsequent rounds of Praziquantel to eliminate the possibility of flukes, so I'm not overly convinced that it is flukes. Then again, you never really know.

There is some evidence that scratching in certain fish is behavioral, but I'm more inclined to think it is flukes. In this case, I'd suspect gill flukes. These can be tough to treat because some species are egg layers and breaking their life cycle with prazi is difficult.

What treatment schedule did you use with the prazi?

Jay

 

[argcargv]

There is some evidence that scratching in certain fish is behavioral, but I'm more inclined to think it is flukes. In this case, I'd suspect gill flukes. These can be tough to treat because some species are egg layers and breaking their life cycle with prazi is difficult.

What treatment schedule did you use with the prazi?

Jay

I definitely know that there were skin flukes present when I initially got the fish. This was confirmed by performing a freshwater dip. As for gill flukes however, I wouldn't know how to confirm their presence.

The Praziquantel product that I'm using is:

• Blue Planet Fluke/Tapeworm Tablets

I'm also following their dosage recommendations, which are:

• Use 1 Tablet per 20 liters.
• After 48 hours from initial Treatment change 25% of Aquarium water and clean filter medium.
• Repeat Dose 7 days later to prevent re-infestation.

Maybe the above instructions aren't enough to break their lifecycle, as you mentioned? Should I be modifying my approach if it were to be gill flukes? Also, would gill flukes cause the "tufts" that are seen in the initial post?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I definitely know that there were skin flukes present when I initially got the fish. This was confirmed by performing a freshwater dip. As for gill flukes however, I wouldn't know how to confirm their presence.

The Praziquantel product that I'm using is:

• Blue Planet Fluke/Tapeworm Tablets

I'm also following their dosage recommendations, which are:

• Use 1 Tablet per 20 liters.
• After 48 hours from initial Treatment change 25% of Aquarium water and clean filter medium.
• Repeat Dose 7 days later to prevent re-infestation.

Maybe the above instructions aren't enough to break their lifecycle, as you mentioned? Should I be modifying my approach if it were to be gill flukes? Also, would gill flukes cause the "tufts" that are seen in the initial post?

Thanks for your help!

I've not used that product, but according to my math - the dose is around 4.75 ppm praziquantel. The normal dose according to Thoney's original paper is 2.2 ppm. I have used prazi at 4 ppm in stubborn cases, but to go that high right out of the gate seems odd. then, for it not to have worked is even stranger. The label says each tablet contains 100 mg praziquantel, so I can't attribute the difference to any binders used.

Jay

 

[argcargv]

I've not used that product, but according to my math - the dose is around 4.75 ppm praziquantel. The normal dose according to Thoney's original paper is 2.2 ppm. I have used prazi at 4 ppm in stubborn cases, but to go that high right out of the gate seems odd. then, for it not to have worked is even stranger. The label says each tablet contains 100 mg praziquantel, so I can't attribute the difference to any binders used.

Jay

My trail of thought is that the dosage frequency isn't sufficient and therefore I'm not catching any of the ones that hatched from the eggs? The skin flukes that had come off one of the fish were definitely Neobenedenia. I just witnessed my Desjardini trying to get something off near it's mouth.

Perhaps this isn't flukes and is in fact Ich? There was no deviation in my protocol and Copper Power levels were maintained at recommended therapeutic levels according to my tracker between 2.25ppm and 2.50ppm for the entire 14 days.

I honestly don't know what to do. This hobby was once so much fun, before all our fish supply chains and LFS' got so cooked with parasites.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My trail of thought is that the dosage frequency isn't sufficient and therefore I'm not catching any of the ones that hatched from the eggs? The skin flukes that had come off one of the fish were definitely Neobenedenia. I just witnessed my Desjardini trying to get something off near it's mouth.

Perhaps this isn't flukes and is in fact Ich? There was no deviation in my protocol and Copper Power levels were maintained at recommended therapeutic levels according to my tracker between 2.25ppm and 2.50ppm for the entire 14 days.

I honestly don't know what to do. This hobby was once so much fun, before all our fish supply chains and LFS' got so cooked with parasites.

Neo is tough to control with prazi. I've gone over to using hyposalinity on it. Hypo would also control ich. What about going hypo for 35 days? A specific gravity of 1.012 works for Neo and 1.009 works for ich.

Jay

 

[argcargv]

Neo is tough to control with prazi. I've gone over to using hyposalinity on it. Hypo would also control ich. What about going hypo for 35 days? A specific gravity of 1.012 works for Neo and 1.009 works for ich.

Jay

Hyposalinity is certainly an option, but in all honesty hyposalinity has failed me in the past so I tend to stay away from it.

I honestly have no idea what to do. The Blue Tang is very agitated and it hurts me to watch it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hyposalinity is certainly an option, but in all honesty hyposalinity has failed me in the past so I tend to stay away from it.

I honestly have no idea what to do. The Blue Tang is very agitated and it hurts me to watch it.

My main concern with Hypo is that it doesn't control Amyloodinium (velvet) or Uronema. It can actually make Uronema more prevalent. Other than that, it does knock Neo out very well.

Jay

 

[argcargv]

My main concern with Hypo is that it doesn't control Amyloodinium (velvet) or Uronema. It can actually make Uronema more prevalent. Other than that, it does knock Neo out very well.

Jay

So as an experiment, this morning I had taken the Blue Tang out and placed it within a completely new QT system with fresh saltwater. ~12 hours later and the "tufts/nodules" had mostly disappeared? I don't get it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So as an experiment, this morning I had taken the Blue Tang out and placed it within a completely new QT system with fresh saltwater. ~12 hours later and the "tufts/nodules" had mostly disappeared? I don't get it.

Yes - as per my post on Sunday, this "idiopathic mucus plug" issue is related to water quality (copper treatment for sure, but possibly others). Moving the fish does two things - it physically dislodges some of the plugs and then, puts the fish in a new environment.

Jay

 

[Realamerican13]

I have a hippo tang with same symptoms after 30 days therapeutic copper and 2 rounds of GC, other fish in the qt are fine, is it safe to transfer him, observe and return to display tank if spots go away? alternatively I could add him to the display tank (6 feet) which will give him ample swimming room and (im assuming) a more stress free environment. I would only want to do this if there's no chance of this affecting the other fish as I just finished up a fallow period following ich in the display tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a hippo tang with same symptoms after 30 days therapeutic copper and 2 rounds of GC, other fish in the qt are fine, is it safe to transfer him, observe and return to display tank if spots go away? alternatively I could add him to the display tank (6 feet) which will give him ample swimming room and (im assuming) a more stress free environment. I would only want to do this if there's no chance of this affecting the other fish as I just finished up a fallow period following ich in the display tank.

If the fish 100% has idiopathic mucus plugs, then you would have no worries as this isn't infectious. However, not all "white spots" are that, so there is still some risk that the issue has been misidentified and IS something that is contagious. The safest thing to do would be to wait for the spots to go away, then after the fish has been symptom free for 14 days, consider it safe to move.

Jay

 

[argcargv]

If the fish 100% has idiopathic mucus plugs, then you would have no worries as this isn't infectious. However, not all "white spots" are that, so there is still some risk that the issue has been misidentified and IS something that is contagious. The safest thing to do would be to wait for the spots to go away, then after the fish has been symptom free for 14 days, consider it safe to move.

Jay

I totally agree with Jay here, in that the safest thing to do here would be for all spots to go away. Unless you can be 100% sure that they are indeed mucus plugs, then I wouldn't risk it. Misjudgement has bitten me hard in the past.

 

[Realamerican13]

I’m treating with kanaplex and metroplex right now, will try NFG if that doesn’t work but the large spots did go down after first dose of meds…skin scrape showed no signs of disease.

 

[Realamerican13]

3 rounds of kanaplex and metroplex then focused on water quality, tangs spots have gotten better but are still there. No other fish show any sign of disease (juv Atlantic blue tang, mag fox, one spot fox, purple tang, 2 clowns, and a benghai cardinal…they’ve all been in a 40 gal qt for 3 months…I can’t imagine it’s ich or velvet (previous skin scrape showed no signs of disease)….I think moving him back to the 6 foot display tank will alleviate the stress and his spots will go away. I just want to make sure I’m not transferring anything infectious back into the tank. I would think other fish would have shown signs of something by now. I’ve been feeding them all the nori they can eat, bi weekly water changes, varied foods with beta glucan and selcon…I don’t know what else I can do. Think it’s safe to add back to display?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

3 rounds of kanaplex and metroplex then focused on water quality, tangs spots have gotten better but are still there. No other fish show any sign of disease (juv Atlantic blue tang, mag fox, one spot fox, purple tang, 2 clowns, and a benghai cardinal…they’ve all been in a 40 gal qt for 3 months…I can’t imagine it’s ich or velvet (previous skin scrape showed no signs of disease)….I think moving him back to the 6 foot display tank will alleviate the stress and his spots will go away. I just want to make sure I’m not transferring anything infectious back into the tank. I would think other fish would have shown signs of something by now. I’ve been feeding them all the nori they can eat, bi weekly water changes, varied foods with beta glucan and selcon…I don’t know what else I can do. Think it’s safe to add back to display?

\As I said, my inclination is to always wait at least 14 days from when the fish is symptom-free before moving it back into a DT with other fish. 30 days is even safer. If the quarantine tank isn't stable (high ammonia, etc.) then you might need to modify that timeline.

If your fish just has mucus plugs, then moving it now is fine, and may actually help. However, there is no way to know for sure if that is the problem, nor if the fish may have some other issue as well.

Jay