Ball or Gate Valves? Do I Really Need Them?

[Wandering Albatross]

Good morning all!

I'm getting ready to hook up the plumbing for my 150, and am looking for feedback. It will have a main drain, emergency drain, and one return, all 1". Realistically, do I need a ball or gate valve on any of these? I would think something on the main drain if I ever needed to stop all flow to the sump, but wouldn't turning off the return pump stop the flow too? My understanding is that once the waterline in the DT is below the overflow weir it cannot fill the overflow any further, and the overflow will then drain to below the main drainpipe and stop. Am I correct in that assessment? Granted, that would raise the water level in the sump.

If it's still a good idea to have valves, which would be better/most needed, and on which?

Blessings

 

[goosemans]

I can’t remember the correct terminology but ball/gate valves are used to reduce the flow down to the sump so it is quiet. Fully open overflow is really loud

 

[LiquidSpace]

You need a gate valve on your main drain. Everything else can be ball valves, but I would recommend putting gate valves where you may want precise flow. I put ball valves on my reactor and UV but am thinking about switching out for gate valves for more precise control.

 

[PapaFishRocks]

The cost of the valves is so worth it.

Having a down the road…”really should have put a valve” moment, after the tank is fully established is NO fun. Trust me. ;)

 

[Freenow54]

Good morning all!

I'm getting ready to hook up the plumbing for my 150, and am looking for feedback. It will have a main drain, emergency drain, and one return, all 1". Realistically, do I need a ball or gate valve on any of these? I would think something on the main drain if I ever needed to stop all flow to the sump, but wouldn't turning off the return pump stop the flow too? My understanding is that once the waterline in the DT is below the overflow weir it cannot fill the overflow any further, and the overflow will then drain to below the main drainpipe and stop. Am I correct in that assessment? Granted, that would raise the water level in the sump.

If it's still a good idea to have valves, which would be better/most needed, and on which?

Blessings

Yes if tank is set up for anti siphon then yes cutting the power to your return pump is exactly what I do when cleaning. I did add a lot of valves on mine . I used ball valves but you have to exercise ie turn them on and off once in a while or they will freeze open. I have yet to use them but eventually will have to when my pump fails and I have to replace it. I used to use them to prime my pump as well until I learned how not to lose the prime in the first place

 

[Wandering Albatross]

You need a gate valve on your main drain. Everything else can be ball valves, but I would recommend putting gate valves where you may want precise flow. I put ball valves on my reactor and UV but am thinking about switching out for gate valves for more precise control.

I've heard mixed reviews on gate valves and how they aren't designed for what we use them for, even though they work, something about they get clogged more or breaking down because of the way they're built, depends on who you ask. Do you experience either of these complications? The gate on the main drain is mainly for flow control to reduce sound then? My return will be on its lowest setting to start so I can crank it up if needed (1000ish gph).

Does the return not need anything then, because you could shut off the pump when needed, or would a ball still be better so I could take apart the plumbing if need be? I've heard that hard plumbing is a real pain if you had to replace some of it, clean it, or if it gets clogged, but in my mind I'm not sure how something big enough to clog it would get in there. My overflow teeth are small, and it has a cover, so nothing can jump in.

I don't want to screw up the plumbing and figure that out after its glued and water is in the tank, but it's hard for me to picture how it'll move through the system and at what pace. My equipment has dry-run protection, but I don't want my return draining the sump after 30 seconds because the overflow isn't taking in enough water or draining fast enough. Obviously, I'm also not a fan of ruined floors. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes: Maybe I'm just overly paranoid because I can't visualize the water movement.

 

[C_AWOL]

I've heard mixed reviews on gate valves and how they aren't designed for what we use them for, even though they work, something about they get clogged more or breaking down because of the way they're built, depends on who you ask. Do you experience either of these complications? The gate on the main drain is mainly for flow control to reduce sound then? My return will be on its lowest setting to start so I can crank it up if needed (1000ish gph).

Does the return not need anything then, because you could shut off the pump when needed, or would a ball still be better so I could take apart the plumbing if need be? I've heard that hard plumbing is a real pain if you had to replace some of it, clean it, or if it gets clogged, but in my mind I'm not sure how something big enough to clog it would get in there. My overflow teeth are small, and it has a cover, so nothing can jump in.

I don't want to screw up the plumbing and figure that out after its glued and water is in the tank, but it's hard for me to picture how it'll move through the system and at what pace. My equipment has dry-run protection, but I don't want my return draining the sump after 30 seconds because the overflow isn't taking in enough water or draining fast enough. Obviously, I'm also not a fan of ruined floors. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes: Maybe I'm just overly paranoid because I can't visualize the water movement.

The return wont need a valve unless you are running a manifold off of it/using it for more than 1 output (balance the flow between multiple outputs) or want to use a union ball valve for an easier access service point (especially if theres no easy point of removal otherwise)

Adjusting the flow down on the return to quiet down the overflow isn't a good trade off vs using higher flow + a gate valve (provided you have 2+ drains)

Ball valves are best in areas where small adjustments aren't necessary (manifolds/uv/closed loop/etc)
There is no substitute for a gate valve on the main drain (small adjustments are important to find that balance with creating a full siphon + generating little to no noise)

Theres almost no risk of a clog causing problems if you have a secondary properly sized drain (no gate valve on the secondary is needed) and even more so if you have a third emergency drain.

Typical clog causes would be stray fish or snails (easily preventable if you're mindful) which can be sorted out by opening the valve to max (full siphons for a lot of tanks will have the valves closed to a degree)

Not sure what kind of gate valves people with longevity issues are using but my oldest gate valve is some unknown brand one (white pvc) from my lfs thats been in service on a main drain since 2012 with 0 issues in function. Since then most of the ones I use are spears (gray sch80) which have also had no issues in my experience.

Perhaps these images might be of assistance? (Don't put your ato feed line in the emergency drain, that was temporary)

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I have one drain, one emergency drain, and the return. Tank was pre drilled. No secondary drain unfortunately, so I don’t know if that makes a difference. So gate valve of some kind on the main drain for flow control, ball would be fine on the emergency and return, to be used as needed, as long as they were occasionally turned to keep from getting locked up? Would a valve on the return be able to restrict the flow further if the pump was already at its lowest setting and needed to be lower, or would the pressure cause leaks?

Attached are a few pictures of the sump as is, please ignore the poor silicone job lol

 

[B&CinB.C.]

This is my IM EXT75 Bean Animal plumbing . There is a gate valve on the main drain and none on the secondary or emergency drains. I don't know why you would want a valve on your emergency drain. There are ball valves on the two return lines but I keep those wide open

 

[nlastner]

You need a gate valve on your main drain. Everything else can be ball valves, but I would recommend putting gate valves where you may want precise flow. I put ball valves on my reactor and UV but am thinking about switching out for gate valves for more precise control.

This is technically incorrect, gate valves aren’t intended to be used for throttling flow, a butterfly or globe(ball) would be better.
Over time the stem or gate of the gate valve will wear down causing it to not shut all the way if need be

 

[LiquidSpace]

I've heard mixed reviews on gate valves and how they aren't designed for what we use them for, even though they work, something about they get clogged more or breaking down because of the way they're built, depends on who you ask. Do you experience either of these complications? The gate on the main drain is mainly for flow control to reduce sound then? My return will be on its lowest setting to start so I can crank it up if needed (1000ish gph).

Does the return not need anything then, because you could shut off the pump when needed, or would a ball still be better so I could take apart the plumbing if need be? I've heard that hard plumbing is a real pain if you had to replace some of it, clean it, or if it gets clogged, but in my mind I'm not sure how something big enough to clog it would get in there. My overflow teeth are small, and it has a cover, so nothing can jump in.

I don't want to screw up the plumbing and figure that out after its glued and water is in the tank, but it's hard for me to picture how it'll move through the system and at what pace. My equipment has dry-run protection, but I don't want my return draining the sump after 30 seconds because the overflow isn't taking in enough water or draining fast enough. Obviously, I'm also not a fan of ruined floors. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes: Maybe I'm just overly paranoid because I can't visualize the water movement.

Nope, I haven’t noticed either. I hope I don’t have to worry about clogs because I have two emergency drains.

I realize what I neglected to say is I am using a bean animal setup from IM and the gate valve is what was recommended as seen in @B&CinB.C. ’s post. For other setups, different valves may be more appropriate.

 

[nlastner]

Nope, I haven’t noticed either. I hope I don’t have to worry about clogs because I have two emergency drains.

I realize what I neglected to say is I am using a bean animal setup from IM and the gate valve is what was recommended as seen in @B&CinB.C. ’s post. For other setups, different valves may be more appropriate.

This is a direct recommendation from ASME(American Society for Mechanical Engineering). I am geeky and an engineer so I try to follow standards to a t like a do during work. I am sure for short periods of time it will not cause that much damage, but if you plan on having a 10+ year reef tank I would not recommend a gate valve for regulating flow.
Actually what I would do is do a stop check valve, and then a butterfly valve. This would allow for replacement of the throttling valve(butterfly) whenever if need be, and allow flow in only one direction.

 

[KrisReef]

What is nice to have in plumbing are unions for disconnecting pumps when they need maintenance or replacement. Have a valve and a union can provide better control of drips or floods that can happen when you remove a pump from the attached plumbing.

Have a valve on the returns allows you to stop siphoning without moving all the pipes.
Same applies in reverse for returns. Being able to stop the flow and isolate it in the pipes and avoid filling the sump is sometimes a thing you might be very glad to have, or you may never use the feature.

I prefer 1/4 turn valves on my home water pipes and aquariums because they don't require a bunch of turning in emergencies and they indicate when a line is open or shut out by the handle's position. Try to buy valves that turn easily, sticky or stuck valves that require a wrench are no good.

 

[C_AWOL]

I have one drain, one emergency drain, and the return. Tank was pre drilled. No secondary drain unfortunately, so I don’t know if that makes a difference. So gate valve of some kind on the main drain for flow control, ball would be fine on the emergency and return, to be used as needed, as long as they were occasionally turned to keep from getting locked up? Would a valve on the return be able to restrict the flow further if the pump was already at its lowest setting and needed to be lower, or would the pressure cause leaks?

Attached are a few pictures of the sump as is, please ignore the poor silicone job lol

In your case, the secondary and emergency are the same. You can run a herbie set up vs the beananimal style.

At least from my experience, if no unfortunate snail/fish went into the main drain, there was no need to make adjustments just to "degunk" a gate valve.
If it ever started to make noise, that was a tell tale sign that my return pump(s) needed to be cleaned or something else is wrong.

As far as dialing down a pump further with a valve, theres 0 issue with leaks unless you did a bad job plumbing the return itself (not sure why you would want to based on your display size though)

 

[B&CinB.C.]

another thing about the IM drains is the main and secondary are plumbed to end under the level of the water in the sump for silence but the overflow plumbing ends at the top of the sump so it will make splashing noises if it's draining water . I'm no expert but I've always thought that was a good idea

 

[LiquidSpace]

This is a direct recommendation from ASME(American Society for Mechanical Engineering). I am geeky and an engineer so I try to follow standards to a t like a do during work. I am sure for short periods of time it will not cause that much damage, but if you plan on having a 10+ year reef tank I would not recommend a gate valve for regulating flow.
Actually what I would do is do a stop check valve, and then a butterfly valve. This would allow for replacement of the throttling valve(butterfly) whenever if need be, and allow flow in only one direction.

Interesting. I have never seen anything about butterfly valves in this hobby. I’m not doubting you, just going with what was recommended to me (gate vavles) and sold by the manufacturer of my aquarium.

 

[nlastner]

Interesting. I have never seen anything about butterfly valves in this hobby. I’m not doubting you, just going with what was recommended to me (gate vavles) and sold by the manufacturer of my aquarium.

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[LiquidSpace]

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So a ball valve? I thought there was a different valve since you were calling it a butterfly valve. I didn’t realize butterfly was a different name for it.

Ball valves work. Innovative Marine comes with the gate valves which made adjusting the drain easy.

 

[nlastner]

So a ball valve? I thought there was a different valve since you were calling it a butterfly valve.

By definition a ball valve uses a rotating valve stem that would take greater than 1 turn to fully open or close. A butterfly valve is similar to a gate valve to where it is a actual gage blocking flow, it will rotate around the axis of the stem. When the handle is parallel with the pipe it is fully open, when it is perpindicular it is fully closed.

Butterfly valve:

Globe valve:

 

[DCR]

This is a direct recommendation from ASME(American Society for Mechanical Engineering). I am geeky and an engineer so I try to follow standards to a t like a do during work. I am sure for short periods of time it will not cause that much damage, but if you plan on having a 10+ year reef tank I would not recommend a gate valve for regulating flow.
Actually what I would do is do a stop check valve, and then a butterfly valve. This would allow for replacement of the throttling valve(butterfly) whenever if need be, and allow flow in only one direction.

As an engineer, I agree with this for industrial applications with large pressure drops, but for a 1" gravity drain from 3-4 ft of elevation (minimal pressure drop), a gate valve works great. Nobody makes 1" butterfly valves, and a globe valve is going to be more restrictive to flow and more prone to plugging IMO. Gate valves give very fine control under these low-pressure drop conditions. There is not enough energy to damage the valve. Industrial experience is not really applicable here.