Ball or Gate Valves? Do I Really Need Them?

[nlastner]

As an engineer, I agree with this for industrial applications with large pressure drops, but for a 1" gravity drain from 3-4 ft of elevation (minimal pressure drop), a gate valve works great. Nobody makes 1" butterfly valves, and a globe valve is going to be more restrictive to flow and more prone to plugging IMO. Gate valves give very fine control under these low-pressure drop conditions. There is not enough energy to damage the valve. Industrial experience is not really applicable here.

Exactly, why I said I would take the planned lifespan of the reef into account.
IE, if your building out your dream build that you plan on having forever, I’d go with the more robust set up. If not, I would do gate, currently have a gate on one of my tanks right now.
But for the one inch gate valves, you’d be surprised how many we have on a ship, not pvc of course.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

In your case, the secondary and emergency are the same. You can run a herbie set up vs the beananimal style.

At least from my experience, if no unfortunate snail/fish went into the main drain, there was no need to make adjustments just to "degunk" a gate valve.
If it ever started to make noise, that was a tell tale sign that my return pump(s) needed to be cleaned or something else is wrong.

As far as dialing down a pump further with a valve, theres 0 issue with leaks unless you did a bad job plumbing the return itself (not sure why you would want to based on your display size though)

I don’t think it needs to be dialed down per se, just wondering for curiosity sake. I’d think that flow would be fine for a 150 DT.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

Exactly, why I said I would take the planned lifespan of the reef into account.
IE, if your building out your dream build that you plan on having forever, I’d go with the more robust set up. If not, I would do gate, currently have a gate on one of my tanks right now.
But for the one inch gate valves, you’d be surprised how many we have on a ship, not pvc of course.

I’m planning to keep this reef long term. It will have to move at some point in the future, but with the intent to keep the same livestock, structure, and equipment. That may change when the time comes, but I’d rather build long term, long growing reef communities.

 

[commod0re]

This is a direct recommendation from ASME(American Society for Mechanical Engineering). I am geeky and an engineer so I try to follow standards to a t like a do during work. I am sure for short periods of time it will not cause that much damage, but if you plan on having a 10+ year reef tank I would not recommend a gate valve for regulating flow.
Actually what I would do is do a stop check valve, and then a butterfly valve. This would allow for replacement of the throttling valve(butterfly) whenever if need be, and allow flow in only one direction.

Something to bear in mind about this recommendation from ASME is it’s for industrial settings where pressure is likely to be much higher than an aquarium overflow

 

[C_AWOL]

I don't thing the pressure from a gravity driven siphon could ever cause longevity problems for a gate valve.

On the return it's likely also a non issue with how most pumps are in terms of pressure but I can hardly see a reason for someone to buy one over a quality ball valve since micro adjustments aren't necessary on the return end in our use case.

 

[Lasse]

If you want a silent system - you need to operate the main drain as a siphon - and the emergency drain as your level adjuster. main drain inlet lower than the emergency inlet and you need a valve on the main drain to adjust the water level in the run off chamber to give a full siphon and have the water level at the same height as the emergency inlet. A ball or butterfly valve is not sensitive enough to do this fine calibration of the run off chambers water level. A gate or membrane ventil is excellent for the main drain. The emergency do not need a valve but - IMO - the return pipe need it. According to the return pump - a ball valve is good enough. You will appreciate this valve the day you need to replace your return pump.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[KStatefan]

I do not use any valves on my system but if you are running a full siphon drain there has to be a method to limit the flow for it to be silent.

 

[Freenow54]

I've heard mixed reviews on gate valves and how they aren't designed for what we use them for, even though they work, something about they get clogged more or breaking down because of the way they're built, depends on who you ask. Do you experience either of these complications? The gate on the main drain is mainly for flow control to reduce sound then? My return will be on its lowest setting to start so I can crank it up if needed (1000ish gph).

Does the return not need anything then, because you could shut off the pump when needed, or would a ball still be better so I could take apart the plumbing if need be? I've heard that hard plumbing is a real pain if you had to replace some of it, clean it, or if it gets clogged, but in my mind I'm not sure how something big enough to clog it would get in there. My overflow teeth are small, and it has a cover, so nothing can jump in.

I don't want to screw up the plumbing and figure that out after its glued and water is in the tank, but it's hard for me to picture how it'll move through the system and at what pace. My equipment has dry-run protection, but I don't want my return draining the sump after 30 seconds because the overflow isn't taking in enough water or draining fast enough. Obviously, I'm also not a fan of ruined floors. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes: Maybe I'm just overly paranoid because I can't visualize the water movement.

I keep trying to educate people a proper control valve is a globe. They are used on skimmers by Octo. I recently bought one off Amazon for my own project. Loo them up there are different designs. Gate vales are pure crap. Does not matter who you ask because if they say its the way to go then they don't know what they are talking about put one in and see. They are ok if you set them once, and don't expect them to work ever again. Salt is a real problem. It doest clog a valve just builds up and welds itself to the working parts. As to water speed the return pump hopefully is ac converted to DC. mine runs pretty close to minimum . Cant overflow . Glad you have a cover on your overflow. I lost a clown that way. It got chased in. I got it out luckily only to find it on the floor later. That is why I make covers now.

 

[Freenow54]

If you want a silent system - you need to operate the main drain as a siphon - and the emergency drain as your level adjuster. main drain inlet lower than the emergency inlet and you need a valve on the main drain to adjust the water level in the run off chamber to give a full siphon and have the water level at the same height as the emergency inlet. A ball or butterfly valve is not sensitive enough to do this fine calibration of the run off chambers water level. A gate or membrane ventil is excellent for the main drain. The emergency do not need a valve but - IMO - the return pipe need it. According to the return pump - a ball valve is good enough. You will appreciate this valve the day you need to replace your return pump.

Sincerely Lasse

I like everything you said except GATE VALVE , control is the area of a Globe Valve. On my skimmer I set it once and don't touch. Interested in what you mean by a membrane ventil please explain. Also yes I told him about isolation valves as well but also warned him to exercise them or they will freeze.

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I keep trying to educate people a proper control valve is a globe. They are used on skimmers by Octo. I recently bought one off Amazon for my own project. Loo them up there are different designs. Gate vales are pure crap. Does not matter who you ask because if they say its the way to go then they don't know what they are talking about put one in and see. They are ok if you set them once, and don't expect them to work ever again. Salt is a real problem. It doest clog a valve just builds up and welds itself to the working parts. As to water speed the return pump hopefully is ac converted to DC. mine runs pretty close to minimum . Cant overflow . Glad you have a cover on your overflow. I lost a clown that way. It got chased in. I got it out luckily only to find it on the floor later. That is why I make covers now.

I thought providing a glass overflow cover with the tank was a nice feature indeed. Prevents mishaps, unless I end up with a suicidal fish that pushes it off.

The main reason I ask about gate valves is because almost everyone seems to recommend them, but then proceed to mention how they work with a reactor or for fine tuning areas that may need more 'sensitive' flow, and I have neither. There are mixed answers here which makes it difficult. I want the water to get from point A to point B in as simple a fashion as possible, and to be able to shut off/close all drain lines if needed for whatever reason. While noise is a consideration for sure, a little trickle noise isn't a big deal to me. I'm not a plumber by any stretch of the imagination, so simple is good. Down one drain, through the sump, up the return. Emergency drain in case something goes screwy. Everything is in the sump, so no extra plumbing required to any equipment, save for the return pump. Does salt cause problems on all valves or are you referring to gate valves specifically?

 

[C_AWOL]

Salt creep (my assumption of what he's saying) affecting both ball and gate valves should never be an issue unless they're exposed to salt spray somehow or are partially submerged/externally in contact with water.

Ultimately a huge summary of what most of us are saying:

Gate valve for main drain of any overflow utilizing 2+ drains to create a full siphon. Your emergency drain will be used to dictate the water height in the overflow box itself (since you only have 2 drains)

Quality Ball valves/true union ball valves when necessary everywhere else. No need to over think it and you can install unions where you think servicing is ever necessary (I personally rarely use stand alone unions)

 

[IceNein]

In my opinion the best valve for throttling is a globe valve, the best valve for a quick shut off is a ball valve, and the best valve for isolating something is a gate valve.

This comes from operating nuclear reactors in the Navy, so take that for what you will.

IMO a gate valve will work fine for throttling in a reef system. Globe valves for PVC are not common, you will have to search one up and order them online, they're probably going to cost you more than the gate valve. I personally do not really see the value in arguing with anyone about it.

 

[Lasse]

control is the area of a Globe Valve. On my skimmer I set it once and don't touch. Interested in what you mean by a membrane ventil please explain

My bad - I´m not a native English speaker - I missunderstand the meaning of "globe valve" - your right and a membran valve is the Swedish nomenclature for a certain type of globe valves - a diaphragm valve.

But as other in this thread - I think that a simple gate ventil will do the job in these low pressure systems even if I use a diaphragm valve myself.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Freenow54]

I thought providing a glass overflow cover with the tank was a nice feature indeed. Prevents mishaps, unless I end up with a suicidal fish that pushes it off.

The main reason I ask about gate valves is because almost everyone seems to recommend them, but then proceed to mention how they work with a reactor or for fine tuning areas that may need more 'sensitive' flow, and I have neither. There are mixed answers here which makes it difficult. I want the water to get from point A to point B in as simple a fashion as possible, and to be able to shut off/close all drain lines if needed for whatever reason. While noise is a consideration for sure, a little trickle noise isn't a big deal to me. I'm not a plumber by any stretch of the imagination, so simple is good. Down one drain, through the sump, up the return. Emergency drain in case something goes screwy. Everything is in the sump, so no extra plumbing required to any equipment, save for the return pump. Does salt cause problems on all valves or are you referring to gate valves specifically?

Again goggle gate valves used for setting flow. Yes salt effects gates and ball valves. Do not know about globe valves. When I did my plumbing I used ball valves because I wanted to just isolate or bypass which is also a consideration. Every skimmer I have seen uses globe valves , which I learned that just set them once and leave them alone which is why I don't know if salt effects them. I would assume it does but regardless salt does not clog valves at least not yet since I used PVC 3/4 , and 1 inch which are full measurement ID. Also as I said and in light of your statement I would use ball valves and open and close them periodically. I have seen with my own eyes operators in a refinery have to use three foot pipe wrenches on six inch gate valves to try and shut them off , and or open. They never can get them to totally shut off. I just assume because the gate part has to slip into a slot that small ones would be worse

 

[jsmkmavity]

Ball valves and butterfly valves both have handles that only move 1/4 turn from fully open to fully closed. Ball valves actually have a ball with a hole thru it for flow that when the attached handle is turned the hole is perpendicular to the flow and "hidden" inside the valve body. A butterfly valve uses a thin round piece in the middle of the flow that when turned by the handle closes against the inside of the valve body. For small diameter and low pressure plumbing butterfly valves will probably be much more expensive and ball valves are readily available cheaply in pvc and work great for shutting off flow for maintenance or repair/replacement of parts or equipment. Gate valves and globe valves both require multiple turns of the handle from fully open to fully closed, which is why they work better for fine control of flow where needed like slowing an overflow or adjusting flow thru a skimmer or reactor when needed. All 4 of those types of valves can get stiff if not used or "exercised" occasionally, and gate valves can lose the ability to fully close over time, especially if overtightened when closing. Globe valves are also more difficult to get a brush thru for cleaning than gate valves if that is a concern. Hope this helps you understand the different types of valves. Most styles could be used in multiple applications but they each have subtle differences that make them more desirable for specific functions.

 

[Freenow54]

Ball valves and butterfly valves both have handles that only move 1/4 turn from fully open to fully closed. Ball valves actually have a ball with a hole thru it for flow that when the attached handle is turned the hole is perpendicular to the flow and "hidden" inside the valve body. A butterfly valve uses a thin round piece in the middle of the flow that when turned by the handle closes against the inside of the valve body. For small diameter and low pressure plumbing butterfly valves will probably be much more expensive and ball valves are readily available cheaply in pvc and work great for shutting off flow for maintenance or repair/replacement of parts or equipment. Gate valves and globe valves both require multiple turns of the handle from fully open to fully closed, which is why they work better for fine control of flow where needed like slowing an overflow or adjusting flow thru a skimmer or reactor when needed. All 4 of those types of valves can get stiff if not used or "exercised" occasionally, and gate valves can lose the ability to fully close over time, especially if overtightened when closing. Globe valves are also more difficult to get a brush thru for cleaning than gate valves if that is a concern. Hope this helps you understand the different types of valves. Most styles could be used in multiple applications but they each have subtle differences that make them more desirable for specific functions.

I would think that getting a brush through a globe vale would almost be impossible especially an angle globe

Again goggle gate valves used for setting flow. Yes salt effects gates and ball valves. Do not know about globe valves. When I did my plumbing I used ball valves because I wanted to just isolate or bypass which is also a consideration. Every skimmer

I have seen uses globe valves , which I learned that just set them once and leave them alone which is why I don't know if salt effects them. I would assume it does but regardless salt does not clog valves at least not yet since I used PVC 3/4 , and 1 inch which are full measurement ID. Also as I said and in light of your statement I would use ball valves and open and close them periodically. I have seen with my own eyes operators in a refinery have to use three foot pipe wrenches on six inch gate valves to try and shut them off , and or open. They never can get them to totally shut off. I just assume because the gate part has to slip into a slot that small ones would be worse

You will find that glass is not the way to go it gets etched if you will and blocks light. I went to making my own from readily available screen frame supplies, and stainless mesh from amazon

 

[Wandering Albatross]

I would think that getting a brush through a globe vale would almost be impossible especially an angle globe

You will find that glass is not the way to go it gets etched if you will and blocks light. I went to making my own from readily available screen frame supplies, and stainless mesh from amazon

I might not have chosen glass for a cover personally, as I intend to use screen/mesh for the tank lid itself and have extra scrap from the project, I'm just glad they included a cover for the overflow with the tank at all. No plumbing instructions...at all.... :face-with-rolling-eyes: but at least my fish can't jump in the overflow box.

Thanks everyone for the responses
Blessings