Bolus dosing

[Garf]

I am sure the German chemists and biologists know though

I fully expect that Claude has had the chief Alkalinity chemist shot. Germans have a reputation of quality to uphold, you know.

 

[Garf]

So now they are saying there's "something else" in the Alk. I'm guessing it's a massive fine.

 

[rishma]

Every time I read higher alk, or higher ph, to obtain faster coral growth I always end up asking myself:

• Does that translate to a healthier coral?
• How does that coral fair in more traditional, or lower alk and ph environments?
• Is the faster grown coral in question more fragile due to the rapid growth?

Yes it can grow faster but does that mean we should? I ask similar questions about ammonia dosing. Oh well.

Edit: I see in post 1,575 you actually touched upon it.... Cart before the horse in my case.
Edit 2: last edit - forgot to say hope your day is well.

Interesting. I do operate under the assumption that higher pH is better, within reason. I guess I am just extrapolating from the fact that low pH is worse, which I believe is true when compared to normal ocean reef pH.

Faster growth is not necessarily better. Brighter colors also don’t mean healthier coral…but that doesn’t keep me from wanting them :)

 

[Garf]

Interesting. I do operate under the assumption that higher pH is better, within reason. I guess I am just extrapolating from the fact that low pH is worse, which I believe is true when compared to normal ocean reef pH.

Faster growth is not necessarily better. Brighter colors also don’t mean healthier coral…but that doesn’t keep me from wanting them :)

I wholeheartedly agree that slow growing coral with thick flesh are healthier (perhaps at their prime) than fast growing weedy things.

 

[rtparty]

So now they are saying there's "something else" in the Alk. I'm guessing it's a massive fine.

I think they’ve always claimed a peptide of some kind in the alkalinity mix but that’s been tested and proven false. They also say the “something else” is listed on the box? I don’t have a bottle or box their “special salt” Carbonate Mix to see what it says.

Side note: the “carbonate mix” used to be called Sodium Bicarbonate in all their literature.

Side side note: they really shouldn’t call it the Balling method. It isn’t. Hans had a very specific recipe for his Balling method and they don’t follow it

 

[Garf]

I think they’ve always claimed a peptide of some kind in the alkalinity mix but that’s been tested and proven false. They also say the “something else” is listed on the box? I don’t have a bottle or box their “special salt” Carbonate Mix to see what it says.

Side note: the “carbonate mix” used to be called Sodium Bicarbonate in all their literature.

Side side note: they really shouldn’t call it the Balling method. It isn’t. Hans had a very specific recipe for his Balling method and they don’t follow it

Unfortunately , earlier on they said other bicarbs could work. I send my condolences to the chief chemists family.

 

[Garf]

We have all made an enormous error. Claude explains below;

 

[Pod_01]

Side side note: they really shouldn’t call it the Balling method. It isn’t. Hans had a very specific recipe for his Balling method and they don’t follow it

Interesting that they call it “Balling” yet state in the HTU theoretical calculations are not part of it…

Not sure how they achieve ionic balance, trial and error I guess…

 

[Pod_01]

They also say the “something else” is listed on the box? I don’t have a bottle or box their “special salt” Carbonate Mix to see what it says.

Does this help?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am reading Claude's response to the calculator mess that @Garf pointed out.

I responded on YT - but hate to wade into one more mess with Claude. This entire situation is kind of crazy anyway you slice it.

Even if it was carbonate instead of bicarbonate, mixing it with something less than carbonate would still render the calculator wrong.

 

[rtparty]

Does this help?

I don’t see any type of ingredient list that Claude is talking about. He says any normal chemist can figure out the “extra something” in 5 minutes. But then also states people will see the same alkalinity rise with TM salts or other salts. So now I’m really confused.

“Bolus method” ONLY works with FM products according to Claude and Dig Doug.

Now, we will see the same alkalinity rise and effect using TM salts.

FM’s “special salt” with “something extra” isn’t so special if TM salts have the same “something extra.”

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Would it be plausible for Part C to slightly increase alkalinity?

Just throwing something out there….

 

[rtparty]

I am reading Claude's response to the calculator mess that @Garf pointed out.

I responded on YT - but hate to wade into one more mess with Claude. This entire situation is kind of crazy anyway you slice it.

Even if it was carbonate instead of bicarbonate, mixing it with something less than carbonate would still render the calculator wrong.

More than bicarbonate but less than carbonate. So like a Half-Baked baking soda? :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

 

[BeanAnimal]

More than bicarbonate but less than carbonate. So like a Half-Baked baking soda? :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:

The key point is that even if he confused the terms carbonate and bicarbonate, the calculator can’t be right because it is based on straight carbonate, which provides more alkalinity than any ratio of carbonate and another compound, let alone bicarbonate and any other compound that is not carbonate.

So the product would have to be straight carbonate for the calculator to be correct. Either it is, or Claude is mistaken about what it is — or the calculator is simply wrong.

 

[Pod_01]

I don’t see any type of ingredient list that Claude is talking about. He says any normal chemist can figure out the “extra something” in 5 minutes. But then also states people will see the same alkalinity rise with TM salts or other salts. So now I’m really confused.

“Bolus method” ONLY works with FM products according to Claude and Dig Doug.

Now, we will see the same alkalinity rise and effect using TM salts.

FM’s “special salt” with “something extra” isn’t so special if TM salts have the same “something extra.”

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Would it be plausible for Part C to slightly increase alkalinity?

Just throwing something out there….

What is in FM KH has been asked number of times over the years and the answer from Claude always changes. The new things are peptides and little crystals… I believe he will says what ever comes to his mind.

I am honestly confused with TM reference. Is he saying TM mix is understating the concentration or that they use mysterious ingredients?
From my experience Hans Werner has been quite clear what is in the part B, no mystery.
Maybe someone should mention to Hans that TM PartB may contain mysterious crystals…

You are correct there is no ingredients on FM Kh bottle but from description it is Biopolymer:

I don’t fully understand how bicarbonate or carbonate becomes Biopolymer…. Maybe the peptides make it Biopolymer. The same peptides no one found and Claude refused to discuss…

 

[rtparty]

The key point is that even if he confused the terms carbonate and bicarbonate, the calculator can’t be right because it is based on straight carbonate, which provides more alkalinity than any ratio of carbonate and another compound, let alone bicarbonate and any other compound that is not carbonate.

So the product would have to be straight carbonate for the calculator to be correct. Either it is, or Claude is mistaken about what it is — or the calculator is simply wrong.

I just wanted to get a little Chapelle joke in here

 

[rishma]

Sorry if I missed it but do users find that the calculator matches their tank measurements? If you measure Alk before and after adding a dose, it seems like an easy check.

I wish I knew of a decent chemist with 5 minutes to spare for the reading community.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We have all made an enormous error. Claude explains below;

"A quite normal chemist can find out in minutes how it works".

"whatever I explain you will only believe your great scientist cause nothing else can be possible"

We (the many participants in this thread, an expert analytical chemist, and myself) have, of course, addressed alkalinity endlessly in this thread, including seeing actual alkalinity titration and IR analysis of the alkalinity part of the FM product and compared it to sodium bicarbonate (it matches) without seeing any viable explanation for the alkalinity issues. Trying to understand their explanations is like trying to grab smoke. One explanation comes along, is debunked, and it changes to something else.

Let's start here:

"The extras are described on the boxes and has absolute nothing to do with the Bolus effect".

The term extras leaves some wiggle room as to exactly what has nothing to do with it and what might. I'm not sure what is written on their boxes. The bucket shown above does not seem to address this issue at all, except to note that there is an additional product they recommend using called Balling Light Trace 3. Is that what has nothing to do with it? There's not much there if it does anyway. Not enough to add much alkalinity.

Let's look at the data they give there for the alk effect of the alk part.

500 grams of their alk solids in a total of 5 liters.

10 mL of that solution added to 100 liters adds 0.5 dKH.

Let's compare that to sodium bicarbonate, and to the measurement from my friend.

500 g of sodium bicarbonate (84 g/mole) contains 5.95 moles = 5,950 millimoles. In 5 L, that has a potency of 5,950 mM/5 l = 1.19 mM, which for bicarbonate equals meq/L. 5,950 meq/l = 3,333 dKH.

Adding 10 mL to 100 L is a dilution of 10,000, so the addition is 0.33 dKH, not the claimed 0.5 dKH.

Thus, if the potency claim is true, the product is not just sodium bicarbonate. It could theoretically be consistent with it being mostly sodium carbonate and some unknown material taking up space/mass in the product that does not add alkalinity.

What if the product was sodium carbonate? A similar calculation gives a potency of 5,280 dKH, and a boost of 0.53 dKH, which is pretty close to the claim of 0.5 dKH.

Thus, the bucket label (and likely the calculator as well) is consistent with the product being all or mostly all sodium carbonate.

What about the product itself?

As mentioned a few times already in this thread, an alkalinity titration of the actual product has the expected alkalinity of sodium bicarbonate, not sodium carbonate. The actual experiment was 303.9 mg of FM Carbonate mix in 1 L of ultrapure water. Alkalinity titration (in duplicate) of this solution revealed 10,02 dKH. The expected value if it was sodium bicarbonate is 10.13 dKH. The expected value if it was sodium carbonate is 16.1 dKH. Thus, it matches sodium bicarbonate and does not match sodium carbonate or ANY mixture of sodium bicarbonate and sodium carbonate. As above, it could theoretically match a composition of mostly sodium carbonate and a significant amount (37% by mass) of something that cannot be detected in an alkalinity titration.

An infrared spectrum shows a match to a side by side run on sodium bicarbonate, and it does not match the spectrum of sodium carbonate. It also would not match a mixture of 63% sodium carbonate and some other nonalk material. The IR test clearly rules out the possibility of a significant amount of delayed alk additive in the product.

Thus, there seems to be an inconsistency between the bucket claim and the actual product that cannot be explained by other things in the composition.

I see no other possible composition of the FM alk product than sodium bicarbonate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

We (and FM that I have seen) have not addressed the calcium part of the equation. If the calcium part contains a significant amount of calcium formate (like AFR), that would give a delated alk response while organisms metabolize it to form detectable alk. I've not seen any discussion of the possibility, and it certainly is not part of the invisible microcrystal idea put forth by FM.

The FM equivalent of Balling Part C (assuming one uses it) could contain magnesium formate and do a similar thing.

I've not seen any discussion of when the calcium part or the FM Part C equivalent are supposed to be added, and how these theoretical possibilities relate to the delayed alk response claimed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry if I missed it but do users find that the calculator matches their tank measurements? If you measure Alk before and after adding a dose, it seems like an easy check.

I wish I knew of a decent chemist with 5 minutes to spare for the reading community.

In a beaker test, it does not, as detailed above.

 

[Garf]

We (and FM that I have seen) have not addressed the calcium part of the equation. If the calcium part contains a significant amount of calcium formate (like AFR), that would give a delated alk response while organisms metabolize it to form detectable alk. I've not seen any discussion of the possibility, and it certainly is not part of the invisible microcrystal idea put forth by FM.

The FM equivalent of Balling Part C (assuming one uses it) could contain magnesium formate and do a similar thing.

I've not seen any discussion of when the calcium part or the FM Part C equivalent are supposed to be added, and how these theoretical possibilities relate to the delayed alk response claimed.

The calcium part appeared to be mega strength calcium chloride. I think it worked out at 7 times the strength of your DIY (recipe #2).

Edit - This is from memory. Maybe another number :)