Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, the post of mine that flashes up is clearly in response to the ridiculous claim that I quoted, stating that carbonic acid gets depleted over time when using hydroxide. I stand by that statement and can hardly imagine it’s debatable by any chemist. If you know pH and alk in seawater, you can determine carbonic acid as they are exactly related mathematically.

It also has nothing to do with the bolus aspect of the dosing.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Randy - Doug has indicated that he could have easily been a chemist if he wanted to be. He knows more about reef chemistry and biology than those with classical training, including trained marine biologists and marine chemists, because they don't farm coral and he and Claude do and they have 200.000 ICP tests to prove they are right. This is key to understanding that you are a bit out of your depth here. At least that is what was put forth in one of Doug's videos recently.

 

[Garf]

Randy - Doug has indicated that he could have easily been a chemist if he wanted to be. He knows more about reef chemistry and biology than those with classical training, including trained marine biologists and marine chemists, because they don't farm coral and he and Claude do and they have 200.000 ICP tests to prove they are right. This is key to understanding that you are a bit out of your depth here. At least that is what was put forth in one of Doug's videos recently.

You sure he didn't say alchemist, lol

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy - Doug has indicated that he could have easily been a chemist if he wanted to be. He knows more about reef chemistry and biology than those with classical training, including trained marine biologists and marine chemists, because they don't farm coral and he and Claude do and they have 200.000 ICP tests to prove they are right. This is key to understanding that you are a bit out of your depth here. At least that is what was put forth in one of Doug's videos recently.

I do not doubt he could have been a chemist. The problem with learning by doing is that it is purely observational, and cannot really dissect mechanisms of things unless experiments are designed with that in mind. By far my greatest problem with their statements related to claimed mechanisms, not the observations.

 

[BeanAnimal]

By far my greatest problem with their statements related to claimed mechanisms, not the observations.

I completely agree. However, for me, the issue extends beyond the claims themselves to why they are being made in the first place.

I think innocently crossing that line happens in many cases, but the pattern here is distinctly evident and orchestrated. I feel it is both predatory and propagating a tremendous amount of misinformation into this hobby that is very hard to undo.

 

[twentyleagues]

I do not doubt he could have been a chemist. The problem with learning by doing is that it is purely observational, and cannot really dissect mechanisms of things unless experiments are designed with that in mind. By far my greatest problem with their statements related to claimed mechanisms, not the observations.

I didnt think the day would come that I would not 100% go by what you are saying! The first part is where my fault lies. I have doubts.

 

[Garf]

Ok ill bite

search.app

 

[twentyleagues]

search.app

Whaaat!? There is a graph and everything? lol
I am confused by the video and what he thinks is being proven or disproven. You add alk and ph increases, simple (sure there is stuff that could muddy the waters so to speak). How does the video relate to the reply from Randy to their disciples' post? Obviously by adding the subliminal message quote he believes he has proven some great mystery in the video or something I am missing. You know I bet his alk increased also. Although that probably didnt increase as much as it would have using a different product because you know bolus.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Whaaat!? There is a graph and everything? lol
I am confused by the video and what he thinks is being proven or disproven. You add alk and ph increases, simple (sure there is stuff that could muddy the waters so to speak). How does the video relate to the reply from Randy to their disciples' post? Obviously by adding the subliminal message quote he believes he has proven some great mystery in the video or something I am missing. You know I bet his alk increased also. Although that probably didnt increase as much as it would have using a different product because you know bolus.

Lol

Sure. That’s been known for decades. When reinventing the wheel it is always best to also reinvent tires, spokes, inner tubes, etc.

I lay out the implications of bolus dosing of bicarbonate, carbonate and hydroxide on pH earlier in this thread. I tested it experimentally long, long ago.

Bolus dosing

from the video, it claimed: That's why we have nearly 3,000 people enjoying good pH in the tanks that they've never had before. Okay, so there's no way you can say it doesn't work uh because we've got the proof in the users. Where did that number come from? Surely they do not have data from...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[6272862829]

I guess all you guys are fresh water guys and don’t understand how bicarbonate works according to Claude. Did I understand this correctly

 

[twentyleagues]

I guess all you guys are fresh water guys and don’t understand how bicarbonate works according to Claude. Did I understand this correctly

Born and bred baby!
I "dabbled" in saltwater before but I only had a little under 1500g in the house. I am back dabbling again, this time around only dealing with about a 10th of that. lol So yeah fresh water mostly.

 

[Oldreefer44]

So what do you think is causing the rather dramatic growth increase? Lighting intensity increase alone? Example in this picture: almost all of the colonies pictured above the sand bed have more than doubled in size since starting bolus about 100 days ago. For relative sizing the Monti in the bottom center is about 7 inches across and has added a whole second layer in that time period.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So what do you think is causing the rather dramatic growth increase? Lighting intensity increase alone?

1 - Light increase without question.

2 - growth is compounding. The larger a coral becomes, the more area it has to grow from.

Bolus could be providing some benefit. The issue that most of us have is the "explanations" about possible benefits.

My current consumption was about 20ml a day of Triton Alk. Slowly increasing a ml or so per month.

I upgraded my light output from GHL regular to the coral pop drivers and boosted the intensity by about 5% and made "mid day 100%" last about an hour longer with all channels at 100%. That was ~30 days ago.

In the last week, consumption has gone from 20ml per day to 36ml per day as growth has exploded. The lights are the only thing that have changed, as well as the coral itself growing and adding more area to grow from.

 

[Garf]

So what do you think is causing the rather dramatic growth increase? Lighting intensity increase alone? Example in this picture: almost all of the colonies pictured above the sand bed have more than doubled in size since starting bolus about 100 days ago. For relative sizing the Monti in the bottom center is about 7 inches across and has added a whole second layer in that time period.

Looks good, and you've got a lot of light I expect. Your'e not doing the trace elements in the dark are you? The "Bolus" theory insists this is necessary to prevent excessive reactive oxygen species harming the coral.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So what do you think is causing the rather dramatic growth increase? Lighting intensity increase alone? Example in this picture: almost all of the colonies pictured above the sand bed have more than doubled in size since starting bolus about 100 days ago. For relative sizing the Monti in the bottom center is about 7 inches across and has added a whole second layer in that time period.

Aside from light, changes absolute alk? pH? New assortment of trace elements?

 

[rtparty]

So what do you think is causing the rather dramatic growth increase? Lighting intensity increase alone? Example in this picture: almost all of the colonies pictured above the sand bed have more than doubled in size since starting bolus about 100 days ago. For relative sizing the Monti in the bottom center is about 7 inches across and has added a whole second layer in that time period.

You can’t track it down to one thing because more than one thing was changed.

Light intensity could absolutely be the main reason. Maybe the overwhelming reason even.

Not a perfect analogy but imagine you’re a body builder and you increase your daily caloric intake by 20%. You may see massive gains especially if you were “underfed” before. But let’s throw a wrench in all of it by changing what we eat, when we eat, what workouts we’re doing, etc. How can we possibly know which thing it was? We can’t. We have to assume it was all of the changes combined. But it would be disingenuous to claim it was simply one thing

 

[rishma]

I like that @Oldreefer44 continues to wade in here given he’s a user of the method. And he does it without getting too upset by the overall thread.

It’s been said many times and most recently by @Randy Holmes-Farley and @BeanAnimal, there is no reason this dosing method won’t produce positive results, it just doesn’t work for the reasons claimed or by the mechanisms described/invented. That’s the silly part being called out. Then the defensive and (what I consider unprofessional) behavior of those associated with FM just pours gasoline on the fire.

But alkalinity, trace elements, light, etc grow coral. Maybe a big dose/ spike of alkalinity early in the day has a positive effect on coral too, coupled with higher light intensity might also be doing something positive. There are plenty of anecdotal things we have done in reef tanks that produce positive results and most of us didn't or still don’t fully understand why. Part of the hobby for many is trying to understand why things work the way they do. It’s a disservice to the hobby to spread scientific inaccuracy from an influential position.

So @Oldreefer44, I don’t know why you are seeing positive results but I’m glad you are. I’ve been thinking about my own dosing schedule and lighting profile, wondering if I might see a benefit by making some subtle changes. In the old days I dosed a lot of alkalinity at once and my halides just turned on full power. I had some successful tanks and fast growth.

 

[Oldreefer44]

I like that @Oldreefer44 continues to wade in here given he’s a user of the method. And he does it without getting too upset by the overall thread.

It’s been said many times and most recently by @Randy Holmes-Farley and @BeanAnimal, there is no reason this dosing method won’t produce positive results, it just doesn’t work for the reasons claimed or by the mechanisms described/invented. That’s the silly part being called out. Then the defensive and (what I consider unprofessional) behavior of those associated with FM just pours gasoline on the fire.

But alkalinity, trace elements, light, etc grow coral. Maybe a big dose/ spike of alkalinity early in the day has a positive effect on coral too, coupled with higher light intensity might also be doing something positive. There are plenty of anecdotal things we have done in reef tanks that produce positive results and most of us didn't or still don’t fully understand why. Part of the hobby for many is trying to understand why things work the way they do. It’s a disservice to the hobby to spread scientific inaccuracy from an influential position.

So @Oldreefer44, I don’t know why you are seeing positive results but I’m glad you are. I’ve been thinking about my own dosing schedule and lighting profile, wondering if I might see a benefit by making some subtle changes. In the old days I dosed a lot of alkalinity at once and my halides just turned on full power. I had some successful tanks and fast growth.

Thanks. I assisted in raising 4 daughters so not much gets me too upset. Especially after having counseled countless families who remotely watched family members die from COVID or related illnesses during the pandemic.
I do not claim to understand why this works and being a natural skeptic, especially of men my daughters were dating, I have been pleasantly surprised at the results. I would love to understand the why's of it but, IMO, it would take an entire lab to separate the causes and effects. My suspicion is that it is largely the lighting but that's just me.

 

[Oldreefer44]

Aside from light, changes absolute alk? pH? New assortment of trace elements?

PH went up as stated previously. I have been able to stabilize ALK at around 8.2 during the day. Other than that no changes other than using the FM traces that come with the system versus AFR.

 

[Oldreefer44]

Looks good, and you've got a lot of light I expect. Your'e not doing the trace elements in the dark are you? The "Bolus" theory insists this is necessary to prevent excessive reactive oxygen species harming the coral.

Yeah, I have been surprised that I have been able to raise my lighting by about 60% over what ATI recommends for sps systems without harmful effects. Yes, I dose all the alk at 7:30 AM which is dark up here.