Breaker tripping

[BeanAnimal]

I don't think the price is out of line. Retail on a 40 space GE homeline is $200 + breaker cost.
$1500 for the time and materials is reasonable for a panel "replacement"
- I would ask that the bus bars be replaced in that price if they are oxidized.
- In other words, are they gutting the panel to the "can". If not, then maybe a tad high.

I would like to see if the panel Surge device is MOV or MOV and Avalanche Diodes combined. The price may be fine or a bit steep depending on the device. Do you need it? I dunno, maybe. I have a fairly high end up here, but I paid nothing for it and would not have spent the $2500 that it cost. I am rather sure it has saved us a few times.

It looks like (4) secondary surge devices are quoted as well. Where is he placing those. Same question. Are the MOV or also Avalanche? I may pass on those if he is doing a whole house that is decent quality.

Panel lugs - replacement is parts and labor. It is steep if they are already gutting and rewiring the panel. Lugs, bus bars, etc. all the same labor. But even so added together $3K for a panel replacement is not insane, albeit a bit high in my opinion. That work here would be 1500 -1800, 2K tops for panel swap. But this is not FLA.

$1K per outlet drop is pretty standard if they are running new wire and have to fish any of it. Again, I would ask that each of those drops be terminated in a duplex box with (2) GFCIs or a triplex box with (3) GFCIs each. So that you have (4) or (6) receptacles. Should cost very little extra, the money is in pulling the circuit in not the wall box or the receptacles. If they are NOT pulling new wire in and cutting new boxes in, this is on the high side.

 

[Miami Reef]

I don't think the price is out of line. Retail on a 40 space GE homeline is $200 + breaker cost.
$1500 for the time and materials is reasonable for a panel "replacement"
- I would ask that the bus bars be replaced in that price if they are oxidized.

I would like to see if the panel Surge device is MOV or MOV and Avalanche Diodes combined.

It looks like (4) secondary surge devices. Where is he placing those. Same question. Are the MOV or also Avalanche? I may pass on those if he is doing a whole house that is decent quality.

Panel lugs - replacement is parts and labor. It is steep if they are already gutting and rewiring the panel. But still $3K for a panel replacement is not insane, though a bit steep.

$1K per outlet drop is pretty standard if they are running new wire and have to fish any of it. Again, I would ask that each of those drops be terminated in a duplex box with (2) GFCIs or a triplex box with (3) GFCIs each. So that you have (4) or (6) receptacles. Should cost very little extra, the money is in pulling the circuit in not the wall box or the receptacles.

Thank you. I texted him your message. He’s very receptive, so I think you’re getting me on the right track. I trust your experience.

He will let me know with the answers to the questions and if he can do the job. Thank you.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thank you. I texted him your message. He’s very receptive, so I think you’re getting me on the right track. I trust your experience.

He will let me know with the answers to the questions and if he can do the job. Thank you.

He needs to make fair money for sure. Sometimes being competitive on a few line items means padding a few others. I don't think his quote is out of line, but there may be room to adjust -- esp the surge protectors and maybe just a bit of labor. And again -- to be sure. I have no idea what the going rate for electrical work in FLA is.

Also - are they sure that water is not leaking into the box from somewhere?

 

[wet_rocks_reef]

First is it a standard breaker, arc fault or GFCI breaker in your panel?

This is a great question to answer.. In my situation i did a kitchen remodel and they installs ARC Fault.. which seemed to be sensitive for my reef tank power draw

 

[Miami Reef]

He needs to make fair money for sure. Sometimes being competitive on a few line items means padding a few others. I don't think his quote is out of line, but there may be room to adjust -- esp the surge protectors and maybe just a bit of labor.

Also - are they sure that water is not leaking into the box from somewhere?

About the leak: the electrician doesn’t know if the leak was a previous issue or if it’s ongoing. He didn’t see actual water during the inspection.

Nevertheless, we see some cracks on the ceiling, so we are calling our handyman to open it up and make sure it’s completely water proof prior to this electrical repair.

I don’t know exactly how he’s going to check, so I’ll keep you posted. But ya, I definitely want to get the water issue ruled out prior to doing anything.

Also, thanks for letting me know which parts I can negotiate on. The helps a lot.

 

[BeanAnimal]

This is a great question to answer.. In my situation i did a kitchen remodel and they installs ARC Fault.. which seemed to be sensitive for my reef tank power draw

arc fault breakers look for frequency spikes that appear to be "electrical arcs". They don't do will with motors or electronics like ballasts that create false positive "arc" signatures.

 

[W31Olds]

Miami, get another estimate. Why is he charging you for 5 surge protectors and what would be the details of the $50K Warranty? Why does he think you need 2 more lines pulled and what are they 15A or 20A? For that kind of money, they should give you that useless Power Club Membership for free ($120 a year) and Bean is correct, steep for Panels lugs.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I think he added the power club to provide the "discounts" -- way t sell ongoing service. Me? I would likely not quibble over that and allow it to drive the discount, but cancel at renewal. Use the bargaining to instead negotiate the other stuff if needed. I also think the surge devices are to add margin. If the primary is MOV and Avalanche, the price is fine and it is a good investment. If it is just MOV, I would pass at that price, unless it has insane clamping time and some pretty impressive MOVs and topology. Beyond the scope of this conversation, but basic model and type would tell me a lot.

 

[Miami Reef]

The handy man we work with thinks the water damage is something old that was repaired; otherwise, there would be actual water. We had heavy rain the past 3 days, and we used the bathrooms and showers upstairs as well.

What do you think?

 

[Miami Reef]

Why is he charging you for 5 surge protectors and what would be the details of the $50K Warranty?

Hmm. You have a point. He told me I only needed one surge protector during the physical visit.

 

[W31Olds]

Miami, any business that sells me a "membership" to obtain a discount would be a reason to get a second estimate. If it were my house and considering the expected cost to repair, I would get at least 3. Whole house Surge Protectors as well as lugs are not that expensive and not difficult to install/ replace. Sounds like he's basically rebuilding your Panel because to replace it with new may require a permit. That's a Florida code question. Tell the Electrician your Handyman doesn't see evidence of a recent leak so is the panel causing the problem or wiring to your tank outlets. Also, Bean should know about these surge protection warranties and if they are worth the cost and who pays a claim.

 

[UncommonSense]

As someone who’s chased more than my fair share of leaks; I’ll say that it can be wise to carefully examine these things… I recall in your OP, you were having your most noticeable electrical issues while rain was occurring…

This tells me there is a chance water is still getting in somewhere it shouldn’t, if not triggered solely by humidity…

The handy man we work with thinks the water damage is something old that was repaired; otherwise, there would be actual water. We had heavy rain the past 3 days, and we used the bathrooms and showers upstairs as well.

What do you think?

Has the handyman checked for leaks since this rainstorm passed? Or was his inspection prior?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Miami, any business that sells me a "membership" to obtain a discount would be a reason to get a second estimate.

I think they are common these days. I think it is silly and getting the "discount" without the plan is easy, but (to me) it is a wasted bargaining chip that nets you $120 -- and almost certainly plays a card that could be used to leverage more savings in other areas. A pick your battles kind of thing. I don't disagree on other estimates.

Part of the issue here is that the scope of work is vague, as this is out of Miami's area of expertise and he is using us to somewhat build that scope.

Whole house Surge Protectors as well as lugs are not that expensive and not difficult to install/ replace.

There are a large range of devices, but there is no truly "whole house" surge device that is "plug in" that is worth a hoot.

I would like to know what devices they are selling to determine if they are an upsell to pad margin, or a value-add. OP can go buy a Liebert AccuVar for $500 (absolute bare minimum I would install), but still needs to hardwire it to the panel and do so with less than 5' of wire -- or it is mostly a waste of $500.

Sounds like he's basically rebuilding your Panel because to replace it with new may require a permit.

That would be my guess. I am good with that, the less hassle the better.

Bean should know about these surge protection warranties and if they are worth the cost and who pays a claim.

It’s nearly impossible to claim those warranties. There are too many hoops, too many loopholes. The device is what it is -- a shunt for routine surges and a hedge that a direct or nearby strike causes less damage than it otherwise would. Routine surges happen constantly and are very hard on equipment. There is unquestionably merit in whole panel surge suppressors.

There is also actual merit in the plug strip type for local device protection. They are nowhere near as effective as whole panel units, but do add a line of defense close to the device. The issue with the plug strip type is that they contain a few cheap MOVs (as few as two) and they live short (no pun) lives. Most "surge" type plug strips that are a few years old are not doing much suppressing. They simply absorbed enough surges to render them silently useless.

A hybrid panel device is preferred for these reasons:

MOVs degrade. They have a finite life, especially after repeated surges.
MOVs are slow, but they handle large energy very well.
Avalanche diodes are fast, but they can't absorb much energy.

Combining them gives fast initial clamping (diodes) and sustained energy dissipation (MOVs). The layered topology is more effective across a wider surge profile. Better suppressors have larger component counts and the better-matched components to ensure parallel surge gating, preventing single components from taking the brunt.

 

[Jimmy Smits IV]

Someone tell me this price is a bit outrageous? Is it normal?


He will fix up the panel. He will replace the rusted lugs, but he said that part was optional. He wants to add a surge protector; he told me one was enough.

I mentioned about adding 2 circuits and 2 GFCI per circuit, so he added it to the quote.

In december I had:

New non flammable backer board for panel
Total panel replacement to Square D QO 42 space panel
25KA surge protector
28 Breakers (Up to code, including CAFI/GFI dual breakers, CAFI breakers, and a few regular breakers)
Generator interlock kit
Generator receptacle on outside of the house and wire to the breaker
Re-sealing outside connections with duct seal
Re-greasing and cleaning the meter box
New 8' ground rod

Total cost was $5,034.

Since this was a friend, labor charged to me was only $70 per hour. Assuming commercial rate, maybe double the labor rate? You would be looking at a total closer to $6,000-$6,500


Do with that what you will, I have no comment on the quote as I am not that familiar with electrical work and the considerations that go into working up a quote. As a client though, I would not want them to simply refresh the panel, but replace everything, the labor and breakers are the most expensive part, might as well do everything.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Total cost was $5,034.

Since this was a friend, labor charged to me was only $70 per hour. Assuming commercial rate, maybe double the labor rate? You would be looking at a total closer to $6,000-$6,500

Hard to compare FLA and Maine for residential work like this. One way or the other, you got a very good deal. Many quotes will be for the job, not based on the hourly rate. Look at it this way, if I send a guy to your house for 5 hours, he is not billable for any other job thst day, so I am building 8 hours into the quote. 2 guys at 5 hours costs me 10 hours one way or the rather, so thst is what I base the quote on. Make se sense?

As a client though, I would not want them to simply refresh the panel, but replace everything, the labor and breakers are the most expensive part, might as well do everything.

A panel is the metal box, (the can), the bus bars, lugs, and ground and neutral terminals blocks. No reason to replace the can. Most contractors don’t buy fully assembled panels. Those are expensive. They buy empty cans, bus bars and terminal blocks and lugs. They place only what is needed for a given install.

 

[Reefering1]

Hard to compare FLA and Maine for residential work like this. One way or the other, you got a very good deal. Many quotes will be for the job, not based on the hourly rate. Look at it this way, if I send a guy to your house for 5 hours, he is not billable for any other job thst day, so I am building 8 hours into the quote. 2 guys at 5 hours costs me 10 hours one way or the rather, so thst is what I base the quote on. Make se sense?


A panel is the metal box, (the can), the bus bars, lugs, and ground and neutral terminals blocks. No reason to replace the can. Most contractors don’t buy fully assembled panels. Those are expensive. They buy empty cans, bus bars and terminal blocks and lugs. They place only what is needed for a given install.

What are your thoughts on the issue of 2 breakers needing to be turned off to shut off the outlrt/circuit. It was unclear(unless I missed it) whether they we just abandoning those circuits in place or fixing the issue and adding additional circuits. Seems like the former, if I read correctly...

 

[BeanAnimal]

What are your thoughts on the issue of 2 breakers needing to be turned off to shut off the outlrt/circuit. It was unclear(unless I missed it) whether they we just abandoning those circuits in place or fixing the issue and adding additional circuits. Seems like the former, if I read correctly...

Hard to tell. Shared neutral circuits use two breakers, but they should be handle tied with each on a different leg. It may have been a shared neutral where the two breakers were not adjacent and instead both on the same leg, overloading the neutral. If somewhere they both landed on the same yoke they would basically be paralleled to two breakers. Honestly, no clue without looking at it myself.

I had Miami ask if the new circuits would be new home runs because it was not made clear in the quote.

 

[Miami Reef]

I got 2 new circuits (new home runs) with 1 GFCI per circuit.

It’s outputting 120V in each outlet.

I also have my old, working GFCI that’s on another circuit. Problem solved.

Thanks everyone.

 

[UncommonSense]

I got 2 new circuits (new home runs) with 1 GFCI per circuit.

It’s outputting 120V in each outlet.

I also have my old, working GFCI that’s on another circuit. Problem solved.

Thanks everyone.

Just following up on the rewire; hopefully you’ve been issue free since then?

 

[Miami Reef]

Just following up on the rewire; hopefully you’ve been issue free since then?

Yes! It’s perfect. I’ll show the outlets tonight because they are GFCI on a thick, gray box.